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NewbSaibot   United States. Oct 12 2013 00:50. Posts 4946



Fucking thing sucks!

I came across a thread on that other poker forum offering live coaching assistance, which peaked my curiosity so I bought a few sessions to see if I could plug any glaring leaks in my game. I just kinda wanted a fresh start and figured I might as well start with live since the play is so much worse. I came with my hat in hand knowing I was probably doing everything backwards at this point and looking to start over. See whenever I play live I seem to get completely lost in the hand. I could just never find a way to get paid off properly, it had to be something I was doing wrong.

My "coach" kinda drew my attention to the fact that I'm not really going into the hand with a plan. Basically just level 1 poker thinking "i has hand, therefore I bets". I mean I could actually put people on semi-accurate ranges quite often, but I just didnt know how to exploit it. So he's sorta helped me start shifting my strategy to "ok, how can I make money with this hand, vs this player, from this position". Most of the time the answer is "I cant" resulting a fold, which has been really helpful. For instance I would raise 44 utg 9 handed, because somewhere along the line I picked up a strat that says you should raise all PP's regardless of position if you are first in the pot. I get the logic behind it, balance and all that shit. I also get the logic that says you might not even need to balance, so just limp, you could flop a set and stack 3 people first to act. Well it's shit like this that just never panned out. I'd whiff most of the time and have no chance of taking it down on the flop no matter how the hand played out, or I'd flop a set and make like no money.

It wasnt until he asked me to describe how I win a big pot utg with 44 that I started stuttering and realized I had no idea, no plan at all. Just flop a set and hope someone else flops something big enough to cooler them with. Which is funny, because it also brought up this idea of what he called "reciprocity" from some book, which basically says something like you dont make money when you stack someone if they didnt make a mistake. If someone gets it allin for 200BB's vs me set over set, well they didnt really make a mistake. So that money I won wasnt really profit, because it could just go right back when I'm on the opposite side of the table. We make money when our opponents make mistakes. So instead of set-mining out of position with 7x preflop raises, maybe I should just fold and wait to pick up that hand in late position after a few limpers or even a raiser has given me a specific REASON to play that hand vs him. So I really made a concerted effort to look at the board, look at my opponent, think about what he could have (very loose players which can make it difficult sometimes) and then think "how do I get the most money here. Do I raise? Do I call? How much do I bet, small or big?" etc.

So for instance one interesting hand that I found out later I played kinda wrong went like this:

Hero (BB) is dealt 66

UTG (nit $350) raises $15
EP (station $600) calls
CO (maniac $500) calls
Hero (tag $600) calls

Flop ($60)
5 6 9 r

Hero checks
UTG checks
EP bets $20
CO calls
Hero check-raises $120
UTG folds
EP calls
CO folds

Turn ($320)
5 6 9 9 r

Hero checks
EP checks

River ($320)
5 6 9 9 4 r

Hero bets $100
EP min-raises to $200
Hero calls
EP shows 55

My line? Well I was obviously fist-pumping until the river minraise. I checked the turn to induce, and bet the river 1/3 for value against a straight or 9. But I knew he had to be strong, and his raise froze me. I put him on 96. Yeah thats right, one single hand, the only hand that plays passively to see a clear turn card and doesnt just get it allin right away. EP is a horrible player who earlier called a raise OOP with J3s and called a cbet on a 39Qr flop. So often I just freeze vs these players because I get nightmares of all the times I've been sucked out on. I mean he minraised for christ's sake, fish ONLY do that with the goddamn nuts, or at least what they think is the nuts. It just seemed like one of those "well theres no sense in raising, but I cant fold getting 6:1 with a solid boat".

So my coach says instead of trying to get fancy with the turn check, I should have just been pumping money in the whole time. Lead the flop, even into the nit and callers. The idea is simple, they either have something or they dont. If they have something on a board like this, they are calling/raising. We cant be missing any streets of value here. Even as played, on the turn I gotta just ship, especially after he calls a huge check-raise like that. Is anyone ever folding trip 9's or a straight? Fuck no. Get it in now while my equity is still good. Even though I was kinda sorta right on the river about him being so strong, I still cost myself some money from failing to have gotten it allin earlier despite what he could have had.

So that hand stuck with me, and I made sure to use it last night. This time it's a family pot limped to me in the SB and I complete with 78o.


Flop ($20)
10 9 6 r

Hero (tag $450) leads $20
MP (lag $2000) raises $75
Hero 3bets $225
MP 4bets allin
Hero calls

MP shows 10 6 offsuit

He then says to me "wow, I didnt think you would bet with the nuts there". It obviously didnt really matter since he had 2 pair, but chances are he'd still be thinking that even without 2 pair and probably play it the same way vs me with any top pair, draw, etc. Assuming he'd overplay top pair on this board, these are the kinds of spots where I'm getting villains to make legitimate mistakes, and thus make legitimate profit and not just "reciprocal" profit.

Anyway we'll see where this goes for now. 1st night I won $1200, 2nd night I lost $600 using a 3 buyin stop loss (all coolers). I've picked 3 buyins both for tilt and image purposes. Obviously tilt is the most important, and 3 buyins is all I can really stomach right now before it starts to affect my play. The image part comes into the fact that once people see you losing, even if it was with the nuts every time, bad things start to happen. Fish start to play back at you, nits open up against you, everyone just suddenly sees you as some sort of mark because they know you keep losing. So it's just best to quit before you look like a tilted donkey and have everyone mysteriously playing their A-game against you.

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bye now 

Endo   United States. Oct 12 2013 03:30. Posts 953

havnet you been playing poker for a longgggg time?


nerdonpoker   . Oct 12 2013 03:32. Posts 414

Good job on realizing your mistakes and capitalizing on your ability too learn more.


TheLink   Australia. Oct 12 2013 04:18. Posts 406

Whilst its true you can just dismiss coolers from either side of the table if you're missing profitable situations simply because "your opponent isn't making a mistake" then you're losing value. Accept your set over set as they come, they still count toward your win-rate.


Jelle   Belgium. Oct 12 2013 05:19. Posts 3476

hand 1 i don't know if i agree that u should lead out flop but the turn; against a station beginner player checking after u already checkraised the flop is a huge mistake

passive beginners will do things like check behind with trip 9's (or in this case even a boat) almost habitually because they don't care about missing value, on the other hand they will also call with any hand that might make a straight on the next card

the fact that u checkraised big on the flop amplifies the above tendencies even more i think

on the river when he minraises yeah It's embarassing that he had sick nuts and u had sicker nuts and just called but I think your read that he will show up with absurd nuts there is sound

hand 2 nh

GroT 

el_tilon   Canada. Oct 12 2013 14:33. Posts 296

Considering this range {QQ-99,55,A9s,K9s,Q9s,J9s,T9s,92s+,87s,A9o,K9o,Q9o,J9o,T9o,92o+,87o} for villain on the river you are live 87% favorite why not chip it?

I include QQ,JJ,TT cause I saw many players live just call with these hands.

Btw, I would bet turn because the villain has 9x very to often.

THE TILTMONKEY MASTER 

Gnarly   United States. Oct 12 2013 14:57. Posts 1723

I would bet on flop if you have a tight image and are known to lead out on a flop even if it misses you. After that, you can decide whether or not you want it to seem like you were just trying to buy the hand and have decided that what your villian holds may beat you, or just keep barreling. That more so depends on your opponent, how long y'all played together, etc. Then again, don't listen to me.

Diversify or fossilize! 

tehduper   Canada. Oct 13 2013 04:34. Posts 26

fyi the phrase is "piqued my curiosity"


player999   Brasil. Oct 13 2013 17:40. Posts 7978

its amazing how ppl with years of experience not only playing but also frequent contact with a forum like this where there is so much knowledge laying around, can ignore basic thought process logic for so long

now imagine ppl who dont have access to this

Browsing through your hand histories makes me wonder that you might not be aware these games are possibly play money. Have you ever tried to cash out? - Kapol 

NewbSaibot   United States. Oct 13 2013 23:26. Posts 4946


  On October 13 2013 16:40 player999 wrote:
its amazing how ppl with years of experience not only playing but also frequent contact with a forum like this where there is so much knowledge laying around, can ignore basic thought process logic for so long

now imagine ppl who dont have access to this

This represents my competition. The people limp calling preflop raises with J3s from EP, 58o, 4bet shipping pocket 7's into a nit, etc. It's like you wonder how their logic could be so badly broken, and it's because they are helpless, having been completely deprived of learning material. I have an edge on them thats for sure, but not much. My only edge is hand range. I dont play junk, but I'm terrible at playing my "good" hands effectively.

It certainly doesnt help that I've stunted my own development as a player by refusing to put in volume since I play stakes I cant afford. I dont have the discipline to grind small stakes, and I dont have the bankroll to grind midstakes.

bye now 

NewbSaibot   United States. Oct 13 2013 23:27. Posts 4946


  On October 13 2013 03:34 tehduper wrote:
fyi the phrase is "piqued my curiosity"

thanks, I'm a stickler for these kinds of things.

bye now 

Jelle   Belgium. Oct 15 2013 12:46. Posts 3476


  On October 13 2013 22:26 NewbSaibot wrote:My only edge is hand range. I dont play junk, but I'm terrible at playing my "good" hands effectively



lol no you are way ahead of them in every single category

you also have humility (never before seen in a poker player) which means you probably can handle more adversity than many good players and vastly more than the weak players you're competing with. This is the main skill in live poker IMO; if you lose for a month straight, are you still playing enough better than the casual J3s guys to beat them + the rake? How are your spending habits? If you go on a conceivable upswing, could you see yourself getting a healthy roll and eventually getting rolled for fishy bigger games? Or do you just spend everything you win until you finally lose and bust out?

ur feeling small stakes is pointless may actually be an advantage. You also seem to put yourself in games with very weak players instead of going for the glory.

Fixing the biggest ingame bad habits is much easier and it sounds like you already fixed the worst one

i liked your chances to do well live until you said youre not putting in any volume

1. Make a pact with yourself to keep playing whenever you're winning until you break everyone in the game, you're completely exhausted and cant keep going any longer, or you lose a big pot. This will be hard to do but it will make sure you put in volume and play as much as possible while everyone else at the table is stuck & tilted and/or intimidated by you. (weak players will fold to your cbets much more often but at the same time pay off your huge river bets much more often as well, when you are the big winner in the game - I don't know why but that's what they do and it's awesome)
2. When you lose a buyin (or 2, make a rule) you can book a loss and take a break for the day. This builds good character and minimizes time playing while stuck against fish who booked a win and are playing to the best of their fishy ability
3. Make rules about how much of ur money you can spend if you win
4. Stop checking nuts against passive stations!
5. Take into account the massive rake you're up against and make some adjustments. Also remember that its a huge handicap game when you are doing poorly against ultraweak opponents so it doesn't tilt you as much

GroT 

Jelle   Belgium. Oct 16 2013 01:34. Posts 3476

GroT 

 



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