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Absurd Ruling Experience |
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Hey guys,
I got pretty upset last night by a situation at a casino, which doesn't happen very often (once every year or 2 maybe). This one I've gotten more upset with time passing and not less, so I thought I'd make a post about it to get it off my chest or perhaps get feedback from you guys saying that it's not as ridiculous as I think.
Some brief background, as I kind of feel this went into me being taken advantage of. I have an extremely strong reputation at the casino for being honest, extremely generous, teaching people things or sharing poker ideas, and very cool when bad things happen to me or I run bad. I probably take this to an absurd extent. A few examples from most normal to most extreme:
Going busto through series of absolutely absurd suckouts, will still always just tap table and say nice hand.
Never really call floor on anyone for anything; if they did something but meant to do something else, I usually let them take it back and do what they intended.
When people have said that I had more in my stack than they thought I did (for instance if they claim a black or a couple of black chips were not in clear view), after winning I just say "alrighty, I guess the $200 doesn't play then if you couldn't see it clearly".
I often let people retrieve their hands out of the muck if I am fairly certain which two cards of the muck are theirs; a couple of times someone has mucked and said 'oh fuck no I had a straight' and let them take it back for a win or for a chop.
There are cases where when someone asks about my hand when we are heads up (during the hand), I give them full range info and how to think about the hand. ie. I bet $900 into $500, they are like "what do you have", and I'm like "well I have these hands in my range I would have 3-bet preflop so I probably don't have those, most 2-pair I'm check-raising on the flop, this bet-sizing almost certainly polarizes my range so you are probably either against the nut-flush here, or I had 1-pair with the nutflush blocker that had showdown value until you bet the river, in which case I decided to turn it into a bluff. So I guess the important thing for you to think about is do I show up with hands that have a pair and a nut-flush blocker too much, in which case I'm bluffing too much in this spot and you should call, or do I just have the nuts too much here, in which case you should just fold". I've always liked to teach/help people out, although I know in the poker community specifically that's frowned upon. Sorry
There has been one case where in a weird multi-way running it multiple times in PLO, there was a sidepot between me and this other guy (who had the nut straight at this point), and he lost to me in the first runout to a higher straight, and to a fullhouse to the 3rd guy in the hand in the 2nd runout. He started getting upset about the running it more than once or something, and he said "I had the nut-straight" and some expletive, a then mucks his hand. Dealer collects it in a way that is irretrievable, cards woven into the rest of the muck. One of the players told him that he was entitled to half of the sidepot with the lower straight (which was about $450, it was a large pot, like $4000). I have played with this person a handful of times and felt he was pretty trustworthy, so I told him he could just take half of the side, even though nobody at the table actually saw his cards. Please note: even for me this is an extreme case, I would only do this very rarely.
So here is the hand (I am messing up some preflop action but it doesn't matter). I have     in the big (with clubs) in 5/5/10 PLO with $1500, someone limps in, opens to $40, villain calls, I call, limper 3-bet, fold, call call. Flop is    , pot is $455 or something. Villian checks, I check, limp-raiser checks. turn  , villain pots it, I call (with intention of calling any boating cards, and evaluating on ace-high flush cards), other person folds. River  , villain goes allin for my 950, I instacall, and he says "did you hit the 9 on the river", I said "yes I did". He stands up, says "Mother-Fucker", and hurls his cards face-down in my direction. The person next to me was hit by one card, I was hit by one or 2; at least one of the cards ended up staying on the felt, I think 1 ended up face up on the bumper, and 2 flew off onto the floor. People are kind of looking around awkwardly, I kind of wait around for a few seconds as a floor is nearby (that I thought had seen most of what had been going on) and starts walking up to the table. Purely out of courtesy (especially since this person was upset, which I don't like), I open up my hand to show that I indeed hit the 9 on the river for a full-house. Guy says "Oh wait, I was asking you if you had nines full, I can beat that. I have 6s full", frantically gets up from his chair to walk around the table retrieving the cards from the ground (floor is standing right here at the table now btw), says "I promise I had this 66 in my hand". I was like "uhh you threw your cards at me off the table man", but the floor right there rules that he will NOT kill the winning hand after guy finds the sixes on the floor despite just hurling it off the table, and his sixes full play over my fours full for the $3,200.
After the pot was pushed to the guy I told him in the most straight-faced calm dead-pan that he should be careful doing that, because at most casinos if you fling your hand at players off of the table, it's usually considered a muck.
Anyway I feel pretty taken advantage of here; I feel that the floor did that because they know I would not ever make a big fuss about it and take it well, where this person already was causing a huge ruckus just because he thought he lost a fucking hand. Either way, I think my days of being overly kind to everyone I play against might be over.
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| | Last edit: 19/09/2016 01:30 |
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You should of asked the dealer if he mucked his hand before revealing information.
Either way nothing to really be upset about as you would of lost technically anyways.
I would fold preflop to the 3 bet, AK94ds has to be one of the weakest nut making hands here
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Some of the things you are doing are obviously over the top "nice" and clearly disadvantaging you. It is one thing to be a nice guy and an honorable player and another to sacrifice tons of ev for no real reason. People WILL take advantage of you.
The guy is an idiot as 44499 is significantly more likely that 9s full but anyways
Yes fuck that floor and his hand should obviously be dead; not only did he muck but his cards fell to the floor which also kills them.
Your biggest mistake is obviously rolling over your hand after he folded. Even if you had won you are just revealing needless information about your sidecards and how you play this 3bet pot. When guy mucks to you HU before you show, ask for the pot. make sure it is pushed to you, and muck face down. |
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| | Last edit: 18/09/2016 04:41 |
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Nitewin United States. Sep 17 2016 23:25. Posts 1552 | | |
It's important to learn to be a stand-up kind of person in life. When you become that kind of person, then will people be able to tell the difference between kindness and weakness. How many times did you see people get fucked over in poker on TV? Usually it's the weak, soft-spoken person that gets ruled against them regardless of the situation. Watch that Youtube video of the top 10 most poorly ruled poker situations (can't find video right now) and you'll see what I mean. Take it as a life lesson. You were going to lose the pot anyway so it shouldn't be a problem monetarily. Even if they mucked his hand, being the nice guy that you are, you'd probably let him retrieve them. So the outcome is the same. Except the way it got there you feel disrespected. Be mean. Be loud. Assert your rights when you need to. Ask them for the casino's official rules; if you threw your cards across and off the table, would you be able to retrieve them in the future? And you want to assert your rights as a player. Tell them it's bullshit. You're going to leave them a bad review. That you've been playing there for years and you're not coming back. Get the floor's name. Make a fuss about it. Say you don't care. He threw his cards, and you want the pot. Tell them the only way they could award him the pot is if next time you throw your cards across the table, you'd be allowed to retrieve them. |
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Nitewin United States. Sep 17 2016 23:29. Posts 1552 | | | |
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GoTuNk Chile. Sep 18 2016 16:57. Posts 2860 | | |
| | On September 17 2016 22:25 Nitewin wrote:
It's important to learn to be a stand-up kind of person in life. When you become that kind of person, then will people be able to tell the difference between kindness and weakness. How many times did you see people get fucked over in poker on TV? Usually it's the weak, soft-spoken person that gets ruled against them regardless of the situation. Watch that Youtube video of the top 10 most poorly ruled poker situations (can't find video right now) and you'll see what I mean. Take it as a life lesson. You were going to lose the pot anyway so it shouldn't be a problem monetarily. Even if they mucked his hand, being the nice guy that you are, you'd probably let him retrieve them. So the outcome is the same. Except the way it got there you feel disrespected. Be mean. Be loud. Assert your rights when you need to. Ask them for the casino's official rules; if you threw your cards across and off the table, would you be able to retrieve them in the future? And you want to assert your rights as a player. Tell them it's bullshit. You're going to leave them a bad review. That you've been playing there for years and you're not coming back. Get the floor's name. Make a fuss about it. Say you don't care. He threw his cards, and you want the pot. Tell them the only way they could award him the pot is if next time you throw your cards across the table, you'd be allowed to retrieve them. |
What Nitewin said. Few things suck more than being taking advantage for being nice, from my personal experience. Specially when you feel you got taken advantage off simply because you allowed it. Geez you took this like a little bitch, sorry. |
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| | Last edit: 18/09/2016 17:00 |
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Bro you giving away free money or what. |
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Garfed Malta. Sep 18 2016 21:48. Posts 4818 | | | |
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Santafairy Korea (South). Sep 19 2016 00:45. Posts 2233 | | |
this needs to be in rounders 2 |
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| It seems to be not very profitable in the long run to play those kind of hands. - Gus Hansen | |
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Spitfiree Bulgaria. Sep 19 2016 01:29. Posts 9634 | | |
What Nitewin said. Problem with being nice is retards take it as a weakness, at which point you should put them in their place. If you do not do that, then you are probably just weak, which is fine, except its a lot of trouble. Don't get offended or anything, its fine being the guy that doesn't want to go into conflicts even if it hurts him a bit, but you should be aware of it, to go for a change if you wish to.
Like longterm this situation doesn't matter, but the fact that this baboon threw his cards into people's faces and still gets his hand retrieved is fucking absurd. It does not matter if he would've won or lost, actions have consequences and he doesn't get his. Floor manager must be a real moron as well tbh to do such a ruling. |
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| | Last edit: 19/09/2016 01:31 |
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Nah no offense taken, I appreciate everyone's feedback. I am angry enough I'm going to do something about it, although I've clearly missed the moment when I could be certain to positively influence the outcome for myself. I am going to confront the floor man who made the ruling next time we are both at the casino, and I might confront the player and ask for $1600 back (or 50% of the pot, the amount I would have kept had I been pushed the pot as I should have but he was also able to find his cards after throwing them at me off the table); I run into him in home-games sometimes, there would be less entanglements with security if the encounter were to become physical. Really not my style at all but after a couple days reflection I really think this was just so far over the line that it is warranted. |
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failsafe United States. Sep 19 2016 06:52. Posts 1040 | | |
If you'd hit As on the river instead of 9d... |
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dnagardi Hungary. Sep 20 2016 06:32. Posts 1778 | | |
i dont know about you but when i play poker i do it purely to win the money of the simple minded because otherwise someone else will take it anyway. Also being nice but forcing to apply the rules whenever it is necessery. So yea you should have taken his money this time. Im pretty sure there is no casino where in this case his cards wouldnt be mucked.... |
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dnagardi Hungary. Sep 20 2016 06:38. Posts 1778 | | |
what also shocks me is why didnt the other players shout at the flooor asking what the fuck is he doing? also why didnt the dealer say something? |
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| | On September 19 2016 00:42 HungarianGOD wrote:
Nah no offense taken, I appreciate everyone's feedback. I am angry enough I'm going to do something about it, although I've clearly missed the moment when I could be certain to positively influence the outcome for myself. I am going to confront the floor man who made the ruling next time we are both at the casino, and I might confront the player and ask for $1600 back (or 50% of the pot, the amount I would have kept had I been pushed the pot as I should have but he was also able to find his cards after throwing them at me off the table); I run into him in home-games sometimes, there would be less entanglements with security if the encounter were to become physical. Really not my style at all but after a couple days reflection I really think this was just so far over the line that it is warranted. |
Are you serious? Warranted? Lol....
Get over it and move on.. asking the other player for 50% will make you a laughing topic.. and don't bother speaking to the floor man who ruled against you.. its his best interest to stand his ground. If you are going to make a case about it now certainly think about which people you will be presenting this too. |
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| | Last edit: 20/09/2016 17:54 |
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Benzooor United States. Sep 20 2016 21:14. Posts 630 | | |
You definitely take nice to an absurd extent.
I also have a reputation at the casino / home games of being extremely nice/trustworthy/etc, but things like showing your cards when not necessary, letting opponents take their cards back from the muck.... that's not being nice, that's straight up charity. I'm surprised that (a) the casino allows it and (b) it's not viewed as collusion. If I walked into a casino and saw two people who knew each other in a pot, and one of them let the other take part of it without seeing their cards, I'd be VERY suspicious.
As for this particular situation, you're right to be pissed, but you definitely shouldn't ask for money. Your time to salvage the money in the pot was when the floor came over. I do think bringing it up to him is fair, but you should treat that $3.2k as a learning experience. |
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blackjacki2 United States. Sep 22 2016 05:45. Posts 2582 | | |
if you're going to let players take cards out of the muck to beat you then you may as well let them pick them up off the floor to beat you too |
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For way less money but I instabet $150 verbally on the river in a hand and the villain instantly said call before I could put in my $150 worth of chips. I flipped over my pocket AA and he said "oh fuck" really quietly and mucked his hand quickly. The dealer simply pushed the pot to me and said he didn't hear the villain say "call". I said no fucking way, fuck this. The whole table got into it too, they said that this is a total scum move, we had people holding hands saying they heard him call my bet. The floor came over and said all he could do was go to the camera room and look at it. He came back and said he couldn't see anything conclusive.
The fucking guy stayed and kept playing for another hour while the whole table berated him, it was so weird. Dealer costing me $150 is pretty crazy its like he went full retard and I was a regular and a "nice guy" at this casino for a few nights a week for a year. |
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