Speaking of Abortion...vid

On June 15 2008 14:32 k2o4 wrote: bravo =) I finally took the time to read all your posts and figure out what you guys were arguing about and I came out on your side of it. I agree that the USA is in a much worse position than 10 years ago in terms of international standing and overall strength. I think it's pretty ridiculous for 1 religion to have so much influence over the a govt that was created on the idea of separation of church and state and the freedom of all people to practice their own religion. If you say "all religions welcomed and respected" and then start trying to force everyone who joined up to follow the rules of 1 of those religions, it's a pretty big time cop out.

Its not forcing them to adhere to one religion, its creating public law by respecting the morals of the majority population. If you cant see the difference, that's pretty sad. You cant choose which laws you want to obey.

My argument isn't on anything specific. Just the general idea that if you create a country with a rule that church and state should be separate, and that all religions are free to join that country and keep their religious practices without being forced into the practices of others, then it is bad to make laws due to the beliefs of 1 religion and impose it on the rest.

Now if you want to drop religion from it and say "its creating public law by respecting the morals of the majority population", then that's fine. I think that sounds a bit better, as long as it doesn't mess with the constitution.

Lastly you said this:

You cant choose which laws you want to obey.

You lost me there. What does that have to do with anything we were talking about?

So as long as the laws are created with different wording as to the reasoning you dont care???? what sense does that make for your argument? 1 religion is still providing the moral basis for all the laws, its just that since the majority of the population is under one religion...you see where im going

On June 15 2008 15:13 SKoT wrote: Its not forcing them to adhere to one religion, its creating public law by respecting the morals of the majority population. If you cant see the difference, that's pretty sad. You cant choose which laws you want to obey.

Btw, if you were implying that the majority of americans want abortions to be illegal, then you're mistaken...

NBC/Wall Street Journal polls gauge support for abortion rights in a different manner, by asking “Which of the following best represents your views about abortion? The choice on abortion should be left up to the woman and her doctor. Abortion should be legal only in cases in which pregnancy results from rape or incest or when the life of the woman is at risk. OR, Abortion should be illegal in all circumstances.” The last time they asked this question, in April of this year, they found 55 percent saying that the choice on abortion should be left up to the woman and her doctor, and 30 percent saying abortion should only be legal in cases of rape, incest or risk to the mother's life. Just 13 percent said it should be illegal in all circumstances. Since 1990, the number saying choice on abortion should be left up to the woman and her doctor has never dipped below 53 percent and has reached a high of 60 percent three times.

full story

The majority of americans think abortion should be legal. What we were talking about in the other thread is how McCain is taking a strong Pro-Life position and how that would lead to the desires of a few religious people being imposed on the rest of americans.

On June 15 2008 16:15 SKoT wrote: So as long as the laws are created with different wording as to the reasoning you dont care???? what sense does that make for your argument? 1 religion is still providing the moral basis for all the laws, its just that since the majority of the population is under one religion...you see where im going

Most americans are christians, but there's lots of different TYPES of christians. Not all christians think abortion should be illegal. But there's a group of them who do. I get your point but I think you miss mine. I'm saying that most of the time I think that if the majority of americans feel one way (I'd actually have to go with super majority, not a 50/50 split) then we should overall go in that direction, AS LONG AS it doesn't fuck with the constitution. I'm a fan of the constitution.

I am overall against a small group (especially radically minded ones) directing the laws that all of us have to follow. I don't like the idea of religious values being forced on the rest of us. Things like forced prayer in school I'm against.

The change in wording that made it ok was MORALS. Morals aren't always the same as religious beliefs. Things like prayer in schools don't fall under the moral thing. Abortion does imo. I think that it's something that can be completely separated from religion. But I put the little addition that I thought it was important to stick with the constitution.

Let's get more specific. We were talking about abortion. You seemed to be saying that (and I could be wrong) the majority of americans were against against abortion cause the majority of americans are christians. I think that's wrong. Like I said above, not all christians are against abortion. So the argument is off. But you might have just been speaking generally.

On June 15 2008 15:13 SKoT wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2008 14:32 k2o4 wrote: bravo =) I finally took the time to read all your posts and figure out what you guys were arguing about and I came out on your side of it. I agree that the USA is in a much worse position than 10 years ago in terms of international standing and overall strength. I think it's pretty ridiculous for 1 religion to have so much influence over the a govt that was created on the idea of separation of church and state and the freedom of all people to practice their own religion. If you say "all religions welcomed and respected" and then start trying to force everyone who joined up to follow the rules of 1 of those religions, it's a pretty big time cop out. Its not forcing them to adhere to one religion, its creating public law by respecting the morals of the majority population. If you cant see the difference, that's pretty sad. You cant choose which laws you want to obey.

I'm ok with creating public law by respecting the morals of the majority.
I'm NOT ok with creating public law by putting into place the morals of the minority.
I'm NOT ok with small religious minorities creating public law.
I'm NOT ok with messing with the constitution.

Is that clearer?

As for specifics, I believe that the pro-life "all abortions should be illegal" stance is an example of a religious minority creating public law.


Sorry for the multiple posts, I've got a huge headache and the TV is on, can't concentrate or put thoughts together for shit right now.

Btw, i couldnt give two fucks less about abortion. Its a hot button issue but weights little to none on my life. I was never implying any of my opinions or the opinions of the country and talking about abortion in any of my above statements.

The great thing about a democracy is that if elected officials dont do what the people want, they get voted out next term.

Cuz chickens are good people ! Haha I love this old fuck.

On June 15 2008 17:37 SKoT wrote: Btw, i couldnt give two fucks less about abortion. Its a hot button issue but weights little to none on my life. I was never implying any of my opinions or the opinions of the country and talking about abortion in any of my above statements. The great thing about a democracy is that if elected officials dont do what the people want, they get voted out next term.

Yes politicians have a tendency to do what the people want... lol are u serious?, only a 5 year old would think politics are that simple.

its meaningless if it weights or not in your personal life, i mean starvation in other continents have 0 weight ur personal life and pretty much everyone except the ones starving so u suggest we should ignore africa and cut all kind of help to them?, that is pretty inhumane.


In general legislating for morality (especially the morality of a minority) is fucking wrong, poker players should be aware of that... outlawing online poker anyone?

On June 16 2008 04:15 Baal wrote: Show nested quote + On June 15 2008 17:37 SKoT wrote: Btw, i couldnt give two fucks less about abortion. Its a hot button issue but weights little to none on my life. I was never implying any of my opinions or the opinions of the country and talking about abortion in any of my above statements. The great thing about a democracy is that if elected officials dont do what the people want, they get voted out next term. Yes politicians have a tendency to do what the people want... lol are u serious?, only a 5 year old would think politics are that simple. its meaningless if it weights or not in your personal life, i mean starvation in other continents have 0 weight ur personal life and pretty much everyone except the ones starving so u suggest we should ignore africa and cut all kind of help to them?, that is pretty inhumane. In general legislating for morality (especially the morality of a minority) is fucking wrong, poker players should be aware of that... outlawing online poker anyone?

good point, wish I'd thought of that as part of my argument, haha.

To a certain extent skot is right about them getting voted out if they don't do what the people who voted for em want, but not always. The problem is that so many americans don't pay any attention so these guys can get away with SOOO much BS before getting in trouble. In an ideal democracy as soon as they strayed the electorate would be on their ass and holding them accountable. I think that's not very common here.

On June 16 2008 01:47 EvilSky wrote: Cuz chickens are good people ! Haha I love this old fuck.

hehe, yeah, that's my favorite line from it too ^^