Sick of POW Card

Actually Bert, McCain owns 0 houses; his wife, through various trusts and other stuff, owns 8, worth approximately 13 million.

Lots of people have done the things you say are similarities between Obama and you. Doesn't mean you should vote for them.

On August 21 2008 15:24 ObsoleteLogic wrote: Actually Bert, McCain owns 0 houses; his wife, through various trusts and other stuff, owns 8, worth approximately 13 million. Lots of people have done the things you say are similarities between Obama and you. Doesn't mean you should vote for them.

are you REALLY gonna play that card - His WIFE owns em so it doesn't count? cmon man, you're better than that.

I'm not saying those are the only reasons, I was making an argument against the idea that Obama is different than me, which is what the McCain Campaign is trying to convince me of. And I'm saying if they want me to vote for who is similar to me, I think Obama is similar.

Honestly I think it's pretty useless to play any card with you, Brett. You've made up your mind with all the pertinacity that I think any human being could possibly muster.

I've said it before: I'm not pro-McCain. I just think that these kinds of character attacks - from both sides - are prone to absolute idiocy, and this here is a certain case of it. Either side would have a legitimate argument if, say, the other had killed a four year old child and ate his innards. But the whole, "he's different from you!" line is almost as stupid as "he's similar to you!" Maybe the guy more like me can better take care of my particular needs; but what if my particular needs aren't what's most important to the country?

And shit, they're both a helluva lot different from me. Last my house was appraised - and it's a pretty nice house, mind you - it was at $380,000. Obama's may only be $1,650,000, but, well, that still comes in at roughly 4.3x mine; and I'm sure he could afford a bigger and nicer one.

It's totally irrelevant and misleading. McCain actually uses 4 houses; the family, as a real estate move, owns 8. So basically, McCain buys a beach house, and Obama rents one. If you're going to defend Obama, defend him on something important, like abortion.

You don't seem like an undecided voter.

haha, gett'em mack, and besides republicans are just dumb... how about that? lmfao i own -_-

=[
Obama for president plz!

First time i actually want to see someone win an election lolz

On August 21 2008 22:36 ggplz wrote: =[ Obama for president plz! First time i actually want to see someone win an election lolz

Yeah me too.

Brian, you do realize that the main point of my post was about the POW thing you and you completely skated over that right? hehe

4 is still 4 times more than Obama. Having 4 houses isn't a fucking normal thing. When you try to call someone a rich snobby elitist and you're running around on your private jet between your ranch in montana, your flat in DC, your condo in Arizona, and your beach house in Cali, it's kinda like the pot calling the kettle black. He's making the argument that Obama is a rich elitist so you shouldn't vote for him, and the point is that McCain is even MORE of a rich elitist, so his argument is really AGAINST HIMSELF and if you believe his argument then you therefore should see McCain as the worst of 2 evils.

I don't care which is richer or more elitist. That's not my concern. My concern is that Obama is pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, pro-ESCR (so is McCain, unfortunately), pro-handouts, and anti-Catholic (explicitly, no, but in all of his policies and personal statements regarding religion and faith, blatantly - and don't pull any of that "he went to Catholic school" shit. So did Steve, it doesn't mean anything).

As for the POW thing: the fact that it's being used to attack McCain is a hundred times more repugnant than any exaggeration on McCain's part. I agree that he shouldn't use it to promote his campaign; but it's a case of two wrongs not making a right. So no, I didn't skate over that. It's a character issue being used in a manner that is, in a pair of words, fucking stupid.

On August 22 2008 18:15 ObsoleteLogic wrote: I don't care which is richer or more elitist. That's not my concern. My concern is that Obama is pro-abortion, pro-gay marriage, pro-ESCR (so is McCain, unfortunately), pro-handouts, and anti-Catholic (explicitly, no, but in all of his policies and personal statements regarding religion and faith, blatantly - and don't pull any of that "he went to Catholic school" shit. So did Steve, it doesn't mean anything).

That's fine, actually that's overall good. I always felt that McCain's attacks were BS (not only cause they're not true but also cause it's like "big deal he has money". I'm just arguing against their BS argument by pointing out how they're really arguing against themselves.

And overall I don't argue with you for not liking Obama cause it's clear most of the reasons you don't like him are based off of real issues. Things like him being pro-choice while you're pro-life (kinda gross of you to write it as pro-abortion though, that's manipulative). That's a major issue for you and you and Obama are clearly on different sides of the issue, so that's fine. You're not going "he's a secret Muslim!" or any BS like that, so I have a lot more respect for your reasons to not vote for him.

I do want to emphasize though that he is NOT pro-abortion, he's pro-choice, and I don't think it's cool to try and twist it like that. He also isn't pro-gay marriage which to me is a problem cause I AM pro-gay marriage. Obama is pro civil union which McCain seems to be as well. I dunno what ESCR is, and am not sure what you mean by handouts. And I've never seen anything anti-catholic but I'm also not sensitive to the issue so I admit I haven't looked for it and probably wouldn't recognize what a catholic would consider to be anti-catholic.

As for the POW thing: the fact that it's being used to attack McCain is a hundred times more repugnant than any exaggeration on McCain's part. I agree that he shouldn't use it to promote his campaign; but it's a case of two wrongs not making a right. So no, I didn't skate over that. It's a character issue being used in a manner that is, in a pair of words, fucking stupid.

I'm not attacking his POW time. That's one of the few things about McCain that I have a lot of respect for. But I am annoyed with him trying to use it as a trump card in all situations. He's abusing it, he's exploiting it, and it annoys me and pisses me off. And I don't believe that him being a POW or being shot down in Nam qualifies him for being president. You can't just run off of the fact that you were a POW, you need more than that.

Note, if he wasn't exploiting his POW time or if he wasn't trying to act like his POW time qualifies him as president, I wouldn't have anything negative to say about it. I'd probably be the one going "I think he's wrong on policy A, B and C, but you gotta give him credit for surviving the POW camp and not using it as part of his campaign."

Obama voted against the Federal Marriage Amendment. So while he may not explicitly promote gay marriage, he doesn't explicitly reject it, either. It's the same thing with his rhetoric and voting when it comes to abortion issues. He avoids voting on or hard-core promoting things that could make him seem divisve. Abortion - or as you call it, "choice," which I'll address in a minute - is a major issue for the majority of democrats, so he has no choice but to endorse it; yet he nonetheless gives the rhetoric about it being an "unfortunate" choice, again, appealing to a sort of compassionate middle-ground image.

ESCR = Embryonic Stem-Cell Research
By handouts I mean he wants to increase federal funding of various programs that, frankly, don't work, giving money to minorities just because they are minorities, etc., etc. This might bother me a little more than it ought simply because I know (among many other cases) a Hispanic student who, depsite having a 2.4 GPA (compared to my 3.95), and income approximately 12,000 more/yr, without any dependents, gets $4000 more a year in scholarship money - because he's Hispanic. Racism! Seriously, how do people not get that singling out people because of their ethnicity, regardless of whether you are "celebrating" or defaming it, differentiates racial groups into separate classes? Go to Obama's site and hover over the "People" item on the menu.

"I do want to emphasize though that he is NOT pro-abortion, he's pro-choice, and I don't think it's cool to try and twist it like that."

Alright, now I've gotten this from a lot of people. If there is any twisting going on here, it's from the other side. Just think about it; obviously, pro-abortion does not mean the person thinks everyone ought to have an abortion. Pro-gun doesn't mean everyone should have a gun, pro-gay marriage doesn't mean that everyone should marry someone of the same sex. Saying "pro-abortion," like saying "pro-gay marriage," means that everyone who wants an abortion, like everyone who wants to marry someone of the same sex, should be allowed. Saying someone is pro-abortion, since deliberately induced abortion is a conditional option of necessity, obviously means that they are "pro-abortion as a choice." Unless of course, they're Margaret Sanger and talking about black people or the poor, in which case sterilization is even better.

Now I know that Obama does his song and dance and sighs deeply about the difficult choice that is having an abortion - he's not a bad actor, I'll give him that. But just because the man says some flowery words doesn't mean he is telling the truth.

Here's how I look at it: if a fetus is not a person until it is born (although Obama said that the answer to such a question is above his "pay grade," despite consistently voting against any law which declares it as such, for that very reason), then what does abortion really matter? It's for comfort, exaggerated cosmetic surgery, nothing but a standard medical procedure. Or is it the fact that the fetus will become a person that gives it some dignity - not enough to prevent it being killed, but enough to feel bad about it, like a dog that needs to be put down? What exactly, then, would be the basis for "not personally agreeing with it?" I mean, if it isn't a person, then who cares, and why? And if it is a person, well then I don't see how you can justify it, regardless of what else you do. It doesn't make sense to me. Maybe you can explain it. Until you do, my perception is going to be that Obama either does not consider it a person, and therefore is a showboating nancy afraid of voicing a genuine opinion, or rates a person as less important than someone else's personal comfort; I'd rather the former be true, to be honest, because the latter is diabolically selfish.

If this doesn't make sense... I blame... alcohol.

Oh, and I already agreed with you about McCain shouldn't be using his POW time in his campaign. And I'm not saying you're attacking him because of it, but in general, things like the article you linked to with the other POW; it's not a direct attack, but it is a subtle attack. It's undermining of his character; it insinuates, "he's not all that special, because I went through it worse than he did!" Be that as it may, McCain still went through a pretty shitty time. He deserves respect for it, and a lot, and things like that subtly lessen such, and thus are attacks.

On August 22 2008 21:58 ObsoleteLogic wrote: Oh, and I already agreed with you about McCain shouldn't be using his POW time in his campaign. And I'm not saying you're attacking him because of it, but in general, things like the article you linked to with the other POW; it's not a direct attack, but it is a subtle attack. It's undermining of his character; it insinuates, "he's not all that special, because I went through it worse than he did!" Be that as it may, McCain still went through a pretty shitty time. He deserves respect for it, and a lot, and things like that subtly lessen such, and thus are attacks.

Good, we're starting to agree on more and more =)

The thing I liked about that article was that the guy said he didn't think the POW experience was a presidential qualification. When clark said it people were up in arms. I feel like a fellow POW saying it finally comes from a source that they nutcases can't attack. And I agree with him on that.

The abortion stuff requires me to think too much right now and I'm all thought out, lol. So probably tomorrow I'll get inspired to respond, but I appreciate the rest of your long post cause while I don't agree with everything, I feel like I can agree to disagree civily on it, and I respect what you're saying cause you're not on some sorta smear campaign. =)

Basically it seems like you don't trust him and are interpreting his votes one way or another. I do trust him and I also am on his side of the issue while you're on the other. So it's just a disagreement on policy, which we can do without being enemies.

Basically it seems like you don't trust him and are interpreting his votes one way or another. I do trust him and I also am on his side of the issue while you're on the other. So it's just a disagreement on policy, which we can do without being enemies.

Actually, on this particular policy, I believe it makes us enemies, and commits us to violence, though not physically. We can remain civil, certainly, like 18th century combatants, but this sir, is to the death! I see abortion as an act of murder - not to say that those who support or perform abortions are murderers; for while they might be doing it out of selfishness, convenience, or ignorance, they do not think it is murder (at least, I should hope not), and therefore without that particular intent are not murderers. Nonetheless, most people ought to know better and are therefore still culpable, for perpetuating their own ignorance or closing their eyes, against the impetus of their natural being.

TO THE DEATH!

Not enough death going on...
P.S. Did you ever reply to me on smiteam? I changed my password to something I couldn't remember so I wouldn't be tempted to call Steve out on being a syphillis-infested cock again.

haha I dun think so, couldn't really think of anything else to say and got distracted by other political stuff

I wrote something related to this here