[25nl] What do you do in this spot?

just bet and win the pot with Q-high
with the 2nd pairs or underpairs why not try to showdown?

about the second barrel, what would IR check/call flop with? I'd expect a lot of ace-rag-sooted that will call two barrels, but maybe not three?

bet until he folds.

if he calls you down with some sort of Ax take a note.

Take a stab on flop. Turnbarrel sometimes.

With 2nd pair, I definitely cbet flop. I check back turn probably to try to showdown.

There's no real "right" answer, especially with no reads. Just take a stab and dont go too crazy trying to always win this kinda pot and you'll be fine imo.

Jolin - you willing to jam river after 2 barreling if turn and river are blanks?

Sanai - There is no cbetting, you're not preflop raiser.

BoreHM - wouldn't ace-rag cbet?

if hes at least decent and capable of folding then yea go for it (i wouldnt ever do it vs fish), the reason being he shouldnt have a strong enough hand here to call down with, and if he does call down you can just take a note and adjust.

ace-rag doesnt necessarily cbet, a lot of ppl will just c/c with it a couple streets and try to get to showdown.

i like to bet flop because there's not much reason for him to not cbet with a hand that can take a lot of pressure. you will probably have to continue on a lot of turns but that shouldn't be that hard. you should bet the turn on any broadway (you'll either get a pair or a gutshut) and those cards don't really hit the range of cards he could have c/c the flop with and you can bet all straight completing cards and flush completing cards because there shouldn't be much incentive for him to give up the initiative and start calling out of position with a draw, which gives you a ton of cards that you can continue the turn with. on the river i think i would only bet if my hand improves to better than Ax, and taking note of whatever he has if we do get to showdown.

with T8 i would probably bet flop too, because we don't have any reads and he can have a ton of cards better than 8 that could pair up and win the pot from you, as well as pairs that will c/c a street that are lower than 8. after the flop bet, i would probably bet turn if i get two pair or trips. i dont think that there's much point in betting if you turn a gutshot though, because you already have showdown value so you don't need to win the pot right away. river play is pretty much the same as QT, betting whenever you make two pair or better.

barrel until he folds, which should be 2-3 barrels depending on how stubborn he is.

barreling looks legit.

when some1 checks that board they often dont just ch/fold since they would Cbet their air most of the time

ppl often have some sort of a plan when they ch those boards as PFR, so just betting once and shutting down is kinda useless

barrel off or just give up

Yes if someone checks that board to you it usually means they don't have air, I wouldn't barrel until he gives up, I would probably stab one street then give up. Also I wouldn't call behind with QT, 3bet or fold, if fish in BB is short then just fold. QTs that is. QTo I would fold every time.

On April 22 2010 13:21 zulu_nation8 wrote: Yes if someone checks that board to you it usually means they don't have air, I wouldn't barrel until he gives up, I would probably stab one street then give up. Also I wouldn't call behind with QT, 3bet or fold, if fish in BB is short then just fold. QTs that is. QTo I would fold every time.

folding QTs ip to a cutoff open is pretty bad.

stabbing 1 street then giving up is also pretty bad. you think someone is c/f TT to one bet here?

If he has TT he would probably bet the flop. I don't see any reason to bet until villain folds, I think that's a massive spew. You'll get check raised a lot on this kind of board. There will be very few turn cards good for barreling. Most importantly we have 0 outs. A mid PP is such a non existent part of villain's range here. Even if we are incredibly straight forward and/or passive villain can still get value from betting flop since there's a straight and flush draw out there. I really don't see any hands a 20/20 guy can check this flop with unless he either wants to c/r or he has complete air with which he would still c-bet most of the time.

If villain really did give up on the flop we can totally stab one street and take the pot down. I like to do it on turn/river when the villain checks at least twice. If I really had to barrel I would do turn/river too and never flop/turn.

As for calling behind the QTs, it might be on the tight side but I usually don't do it.

no TT doesnt necessarily cbet here.

just bcuz theres value to be had with TT doesnt mean villain goes for that value.

a mid PP is a big part of villains range.

you say if he has complete air he'll cbet most of the time, so this means villain prob doesnt have complete air here. if he doesnt have complete air, he prob has some sort of showdown value. hands with showdown value dont check the flop here with the intention of folding to one bet. your logic is inconsistent here.

and again you make too many assumptions about how ppl play their hands and you assume ppl play perfectly.

i dont see how you cant understand why people would check a hand like TT here and how you can conclude that a mid pair is a nonexistent part of villains range.

Mid PPs can't be a big part of villain's range simply because every non paired air hand is 16 combos and every PP hand is 6 combos, he needs to never have air here in order for PPs to make up the majority of his range. I agree if he does have showdown value and he checks it can't really be a strong hand. But again for the same reasons I mentioned I don't like barreling here. I don't understand the sudden urge to turn our hand with 0% equity into a triple barrel bluff on a drawy board just because villain didn't c-bet.

I don't think my assumptions are bad. If villain bets TT/99/88 half the time and checks the other half that's even fewer combos of PP, you can't just put people on a hand that's really hard to make up the majority of any range. If villain calls with their weak holdings too much then the obvious thing to do would be to value bet and not try to barrel them off their weak holding on a board with a flush/straight draw.

I understand people can check TT but that's not the first hand I think of when villain checks. His hand should be air, a hand that's looking to checkraise, then medium PP with showdown value, in that order.

zulu you're funny.

His hand should be air, a hand that's looking to checkraise, then medium PP with showdown value, in that order.

so if his range comprises of what you say (which i agree with except "in that order" part), why are we not firing multiple streets?

our hand likely has 0% showdown equity, but that's why we are firing bets, it's called bluffing. we take a hand with little or no showdown value and give it value by trying to persuade our opponents to fold. also you are in position, which is another reason why it is easier to bluff here. if you are not making your opponents to the right of you living a life of hell vs you, you're doing something wrong. you should be abusing the hell out of them.

i'm also down for 3 barreling if villain checks every street.

also unless you guys are a little shorter than 100bb we will never have to really jam the river (unless you really want to!) in order to bluff due to the pot/stack ratios.
flop pot is about 8bb, say we bet 6 and get a call. pot is 20 on the turn, we fire around 15, pot is 50. we can bet about 35bb and get a fold. so on the river we will approximately only need to bet 60bb anyway, it's good to be able to approximate future street pot sizes based on earlier betting.

i think firing once and giving up is pretty bad though, so either plan to fire at the very least the turn if you bet the flop.

I guess we can fire multiple streets if he calls twice and we can rep something credible or villain is bad. He can't have a strong hand if he calls on this board but again i don't think this is a good spot to fire multiple barrels.

you say:

On April 23 2010 17:28 zulu_nation8 wrote: He can't have a strong hand if he calls on this board

then you say:

On April 23 2010 17:28 zulu_nation8 wrote: but again i don't think this is a good spot to fire multiple barrels.

by your logic, if villain can't have a strong hand, why is this not a good spot to be bluffing?

cuz we're bluffing with 0 equity, villain might be a calling station, not a lot of good barrel cards, etc. Just because villain looks like he's weak doesn't mean we should always triple barrel.