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Age Old Question! Tournament pros vs Cashgame pros

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wobbly_au   Australia. Oct 28 2010 15:28. Posts 6540
Been I while since I've contributed my thoughts to this forum besides the random handhistory commenting. I'd like to share my thoughts on why I think cashgame pros are on average far better than tournament pros. There will always be outliers tho.

I'm going to stay as objective as I can be but since I am a cash game player my argument may come off as one sided. But I invite you to debate/flame/argue your point so I can once and for all know If I'm on the right path.

As a cash game player, I can play up to 1.5mil hands a year and If I am up a significant amount steadily over those 1.5mil hands it is pretty much definitive proof that I am a winner. However for a tournament player to definitively say they are a winner it is much more difficult, lets work on some simple math.

Lets say a super dedicated tournament pro who plays only online (We'll get to live tournament players later) can get about 40 tournaments in a day with an average stake of 50$ and avg field size of 500 (my numbers may be off, if someone here is a tour pro please comment on a more realistic figure) so over the course of one year using 6day work weeks, and 50week work year...

40 X 6 X 50 = 12000 tournaments a year for a super hardworking pro.

Now lets say this pro is super GG at cards like resident hero mig.com and cashes 15% of tournaments and Final tables 6% of tournaments. This is going to be the biggest leap in my argument in saying the hands that REALLY matter are the hands in the final table. Lets say due to the table getting shorter and shorter we get an avg of 80hands/hour at the final table (including break time) and a final table on avg lasts about 2hours at most from my limited MTT experience. Some more simple math we get......

12000 * 6% * 80 * 2 = 115200 hands of significant worth over one year of every day grind.

We all know MTT variance is sick, but if the most amount of volume you can achieve in one whole year is less than what a good cash game player plays in a month or two how can we justify calling them a pro??

I think there are very few pure MTT players out there that have proven themselves, as most of them are young and as my simple math shows it probably would take them a lifetime of playing to play what a cashgame player would in a year.

Now I'm not saying you suck at poker if you've won a tournament, I'm just saying you haven't proven anything.

Let the discussion begin!





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The Last Laugh.Last edit: 28/10/2010 17:23

nolan   Ireland. Oct 28 2010 15:29. Posts 6205

first

On September 08 2008 10:07 Baal wrote: my head is a gyroscope, your argument is invalid 

wobbly_au   Australia. Oct 28 2010 15:31. Posts 6540

btw, can mod change title to Age Old Question~~

Its 3:30am and I can't spell for shit.

The Last Laugh. 

TheHuHu3   United States. Oct 28 2010 15:34. Posts 5544



TheHuHu4 coming soon :) 

terrybunny19240   United States. Oct 28 2010 15:36. Posts 13829

lmao that gif is insane


LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Oct 28 2010 15:45. Posts 15163

Who the fuck cares, this industry is about how much you win and also how can you market yourself when it comes to live MTTs.

93% Sure!  

YouGoTGoT   United States. Oct 28 2010 15:52. Posts 1118

Hahah title was so confusing, glad u commented cuz i had no idea wtf Age of Question meant lol.

Couldnt decide if it was Age Old Question, Question for the Ages, or maybe it's something really cool that I don't even know about

YA I TALK SHIT, GOTTA DEFECATE TO CONVERSATE 

YouGoTGoT   United States. Oct 28 2010 15:53. Posts 1118

Oh, ya, the actual post um...

A pro is anyone that does something for a living. So if they make their living playing tournies, they are a pro. I do agree that cash pros > tournie pros

YA I TALK SHIT, GOTTA DEFECATE TO CONVERSATE 

player999   Brasil. Oct 28 2010 15:54. Posts 7978

there's nothing to discuss, everyone knows this

Browsing through your hand histories makes me wonder that you might not be aware these games are possibly play money. Have you ever tried to cash out? - Kapol 

wobbly_au   Australia. Oct 28 2010 15:54. Posts 6540


  On October 28 2010 14:45 LemOn[5thF] wrote:
Who the fuck cares, this industry is about how much you win and also how can you market yourself when it comes to live MTTs.



I think any person who spends most of their time on poker should care~~~

The Last Laugh. 

dogmeat   Czech Republic. Oct 28 2010 15:55. Posts 6374

in b4 'nobody likes u, gtfo'

ban baal 

SirBlotto   Germany. Oct 28 2010 16:04. Posts 1270

i like this argument.




thewh00sel    United States. Oct 28 2010 16:22. Posts 2734

Tournaments are a whole lot of really hard work for a very simple strategy, at least when it comes to non-live big tourneys anyways. no doubt there is a lot more depth to a cash player's game. The difference is that you have to make yourself grind those 1.5mill hands whereas with tournaments once you sign up u have a start and end point so it's easier to grind them. More grueling, but you need less motivation. As far as the numbers go I would say that the hands at the final table aren't the only thing that's important. That's like saying only pots that you were all-in in cash games are important so if out of 1.5million hands you are all in 10% of the time then you only have 150,000 important hands too.

A government is the most dangerous threat to man’s rights: it holds a legal monopoly on the use of physical force against legally disarmed victims. - Ayn Rand 

wobbly_au   Australia. Oct 28 2010 16:26. Posts 6540


  On October 28 2010 15:22 thewh00sel wrote:
Tournaments are a whole lot of really hard work for a very simple strategy, at least when it comes to non-live big tourneys anyways. no doubt there is a lot more depth to a cash player's game. The difference is that you have to make yourself grind those 1.5mill hands whereas with tournaments once you sign up u have a start and end point so it's easier to grind them. More grueling, but you need less motivation. As far as the numbers go I would say that the hands at the final table aren't the only thing that's important. That's like saying only pots that you were all-in in cash games are important so if out of 1.5million hands you are all in 10% of the time then you only have 150,000 important hands too.



Mostly agree, except ur final point, because we are still playing texas holdem so by ur logic then it should be the 120000 hands on the final table and of those the 10% that you are allin so that makes it 12000.

See what im sayin?

The Last Laugh. 

wobbly_au   Australia. Oct 28 2010 16:33. Posts 6540

could maybe say all itm hands are significant because they effect ur bottomline, but i chose not to because when your just itm your basically only paying off the buyin and the structure is so top heavy that only the final table make any decent money.

Where as in cashgames, every hand you play will directly affect your bottomline.

The Last Laugh. 

gawdawaful   Canada. Oct 28 2010 17:17. Posts 9012

Theres probably some form of flaw or circular logic going on here but I'm not smart enough to find it. But how can you arbitrarily say only ITM/FT tables affect your bottom line/are important? Suppose the most unluckiest tourney pro gets bubbled every single tournament on a KK vs AA or AA vs KK suckout, does he not play a single important hand at all in the year? Of course thats a super extreme example, but I feel like hands leading up to ITM also have some weight.

On the other hand, if a FPP pro plays 3million hands playing 6/6 at FR or something equally as ridiculous, meaning he only plays 180k hands, how does that compare with someone who plays 1million hands at 22/18 or what have you?

I think at the end of the day, who cares what route one chooses to take to make money so long as its within the legal route. For a cash game pro to shit on tourney pros for not being real pros is akin to having a live pro shit on online pros, or having someone with a normal 9-5 shit on poker players for being lucky degenerate gamblers.

Im only good at poker when I run good 

lostaccount   Canada. Oct 28 2010 17:18. Posts 6160

LOL WOBBLY i know you are good at poker but there is more important things the money and poker. who gives a shit if they are called a pro, donk, bitches, pussies, luckboxes. Just care about your own goals and morals. who gives a shit about other thinks about others. i mean poker is already stressful enough thinking for yourself, now you want to have a debate on a useless topic. Just use your common sense, no one gives a shit about these little things, well maybe btiches do.

life with Shen Dieu God 

Garfed   Malta. Oct 28 2010 17:23. Posts 4818


  On October 28 2010 14:31 wobbly_au wrote:
btw, can mod change title to Age Old Question~~

Its 3:30am and I can't spell for shit.


done


AndrewSong    United States. Oct 28 2010 18:08. Posts 2355


  On October 28 2010 15:04 SirBlotto wrote:
i like this argument.






LOL this is so funny. More then half of the MTT pros are slaves. cash game pros are boss. its obvious whos better in life and poker


lostaccount   Canada. Oct 28 2010 18:11. Posts 6160

haha love the picture

life with Shen Dieu God 

 
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