How to make the most out of coaching

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PanoRaMa United States. Nov 13 2010 15:51. Posts 1655

Coaching in poker has become an incredibly profitable submarket, with average players charging even lawyer hourly wages. While that's an entire issue in and of itself, I'd rather talk about how people can benefit the most from getting coaching.

I've probably spent more hours coaching poker than any other reg on LP besides maybe Myth, and have paid for plenty of coaching hours myself from very accomplished players. In most cases people are spending at least a buy in at their stakes per hour for coaching, so it's important to make sure that you're using that money and time effectively. Here are some things to keep in mind when deciding on a coach, and then the actual coaching process itself:

(Note: Before it looks like I'm pimping my own services, I'm not currently coaching and probably won't be anytime soon. If I do coach, it would be for free, but even then the opportunities are extremely limited - i.e. free coaching offer a while back).

1. Price
My quick thoughts on pricing are that the high prices are somewhat justifiable, in that coaches are often contributing to the demise of their own professions in return for a short-term guaranteed wage (a commodity within a world of thieves). In a weird way I also think higher coaching prices force exclusivity - an accomplished coach who charges relatively high premiums will have less students at a time, enabling them to allot more attention to their current student(s), resulting in a better coach/student relationship which means a happier, less-stressed out coach capable of delivering more information more effectively to the student. As a rule of thumb I generally don't suggest low stakes players to pay more than twice their buy in as an hourly, and for mid-high stakes players I generally don't think price should ever be a deterrent (as they're usually providing very exclusive information).

2. Game Relevance
The coaching approach I would take with 400nl players would be different from the approach I'd take with 200nlers. Considering that, my approach with 50nlers must be entirely different, and it should be. I think the best coaches for anyone are the ones that know your stakes best. They have kept up with the changing metagame dynamics, i.e. the way most of the regs think about the game and other players, any trending lines, etc. As a gaming example, years ago back when I was training War3 competitively, I specifically avoided Grubby's (my favorite player) replays and downloaded replays of amateurs instead. I was a mid-level solo Orc player on the Asia realm at the time and downloaded a lot of replays from "Lyn", who was then a mid-high level solo Orc player on Asia. His play was solid and flawless, backed by rational decision making and a solid foundational understanding of the game and how other races were playing. Years later he's apparently the undisputed best Orc in the world.

3. Know your own goals
Is your goal to become a high stakes all-star or are you happy churning out a respectable, consistent monthly wage at lower stakes? Different coaches will have subtle skillset differences that allow them to be better at coaching one or the other. In the former, there's likely a lot of emphasis on critical thinking, poker theory, experimentation, situational psychology. In the latter, there's likely more emphasis on limiting variance, seeking out common and consistent leaks rather than trying to force specific exploitation. Try to get an understanding of your coach's strengths in this regard, hopefully before you hire him, which also leads to:

4. Know your coach's style
As an addition to the previous, it's important that you understand what your coach's style and strengths are. Most coaches usually just impose their style on you (as it is what they believe to be the best form of poker usually). Some coaches are better at just talking and theorizing, in which case you're allowed to make your own stylistic adjustments but those coaches are less common. Check out videos, blog posts, hand histories + analyses from your coach before thinking about hiring them. Consider how it would affect your own personal style as a poker player or as a human being. If you're someone who is trying to make rent per month, likely you don't want to hire a coach who thrives on high variance aggro fests, rather you'd prefer someone who prefers to limit variance and avoid tough spots.

5. Keep an open mind
Your coach, despite all the reviews and money he's made, isn't an all-knowing force. But he's also likely much, much, much better than you. Definitely try to absorb anything he tells you but at the same time if something strikes you as a red flag because it goes against conventional wisdom or mathematics, ask questions about it. Understand that a lot of what he says can just be a stylistic approach to the game (which is hard to quantify as being wrong) but there are times that he may make an unintentional mistake in his assignment of ranges (a common problem) or even the basics like the math for calling a river bet (been there before).

6. Follow-up
Record your session using Camtasia. Watch the session over a day or two after the coaching session. Send your coach questions via e-mail following up on certain theory or lines he mentioned. "Hey I thought about what you said about river check raising, here's a couple HHs where I tried it out, did I apply it correctly?" goes a LONG way. I'm the type of person that tries to pack as much information into an hour as possible, and I've met very few people who can digest and remember all that material days later without having it recorded. If your coach is dropping gold nuggets of wisdom on you and you forget one or two very important things he's said, that translates into a substantial loss of money, both in you having paid for that wisdom but not remembering it, and also the missed opportunity cost in not being able to implement it when you play.

7. Follow-up some more
Months after your coaching hours are finished you're making a lot more money and feeling good about yourself, then you hit a downswing and you're unsure if it's just variance or because people are finally catching onto your antics. Re-watch the coaching sessions you've hopefully recorded to see if you've just forgot about something. Talk to your coach again see if he's changed his opinion about anything he's taught you. I'd be very surprised if the answer is no - the coach you hired is hopefully a very good player, in that case he probably spends a lot of time thinking critically about his game and learning about new things, his game is bound to change.

I'm a huge fan of coaching and being coached, it's just sad that the coaching industry in poker gets so much hate (although in most cases it's well deserved). I definitely wouldn't be where I am today without my coaches but at the same time, this is still poker, which is a meritocracy and to be able to acquire the most out of your coach you need to put in the due diligence.

0 votes

http://panorama.liquidpoker.net

Last edit: 13/11/2010 15:53

LemOn[5thF] Czech Republic. Nov 13 2010 16:55. Posts 15163

What are your rates?

93% Sure!

PanoRaMa United States. Nov 13 2010 18:18. Posts 1655

When I was coaching for money it was between 100-200 depending on stakes and certain special cases. I never wanted to coach for less so I generally discouraged a lot of 25, 50nl players from hiring me for coaching unless we came up with a group coaching deal that benefited everyone. These days though I don't keep up with 6max games enough to merit charging for my coaching, if I did it'd definitely have to be less than 100 and I don't feel like that's a good use of my time. I'd rather have fewer coaching sessions and do it for free until I'm confident enough in my abilities to start charging for coaching again.

http://panorama.liquidpoker.net

Last edit: 13/11/2010 18:20

Exhilarate United States. Nov 14 2010 04:15. Posts 5453

nice, i think most players blindly go into coaching and either dont get their money's worth or they go on a huge heater

M.QuinZ France. Nov 14 2010 07:02. Posts 1

I'm currently a SnG player and i wanna switch to cash, guess i could start at NL25 ou NL50 with my bankroll. Do you think it would be a good idea to find a coach to begin cash or should i first experiment on my own for 5/6 month before hiring a coach?

PanoRaMa United States. Nov 14 2010 09:01. Posts 1655

I personally never got coaching at the lower limits because all the information needed to beat those limits is pretty easily accessible, through articles, videos, lots of great forum threads on here and 2p2, etc. That said it definitely doesn't hurt if you can afford it (i.e. successful NL players switching to PLO for the first time can definitely just go ahead and get a coach because money isn't an issue). If you have any doubts about paying then I would just try to learn and play yourself first and then if you hit a plateau in learning/improving, I'd get a coach then.

http://panorama.liquidpoker.net

MARSHALL28 United States. Nov 14 2010 12:41. Posts 1897

very good post.

Raidern Brasil. Nov 16 2010 09:01. Posts 4243

great post panorama
we are glad to have you in our fp
keep up the good work1

im a regular at nl5