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TRL2: Calling & 3Betting |
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LemOn[5thF] Czech Republic. Nov 28 2010 08:08. Posts 15163 | | |
Part 2 of Thin Red line introductory video. This is about 3betting, and determining 3betting frequencies and ranges. For Non-3bet pots, or note on why I need to review all this so badly please see my previous post. Author is Grindcore, a guy that owns with red line with ridiculous winrates and is one of the best video makers when it comes to adjusting to villains.
This part is more useful to SSNL players, everything will be more or less obvious to you better guys, but please read if like me you need revision.
Green - My comments
Blue - Cliffs (added at the bottom). DO NOT criticise cliffs without reading the section please. They are for you lazy guys, and are done by me = they may wrongly interpret the author.
Without further ado:
3BETTING
Two types of ranges:
1)De-Polarised
This is simple, just best hands. If you 3bet 5% de-polarised range you pick aces, kings and keep going down in value until you have 5% of hands
2) Polarised
1 Part is for value (QQ+)
1Part is a bluff (J9o).
Polarised or De-polarised
You should evaluate how often you will get called, and how often you will get 4bet.
A) Polarised
Lets say a theoretical opponent only 4bets or folds, he NEVER calls a 3bet. Lets assume we can't call his 4bet profitably and we can only fold/shove.
We should ask ourselves what is the worst hand that we can shove for value. Against nitty players this will be QQ+.
When you hold a hand like KQo pre-flop and you think its profitable to flat, by 3betting it you are losing that equity and you might as well 3bet with a hand like 72o. Cards do not matter in this example when you 3bet and fold to a 4bet(ignoring blockers), because you will never see a flop anyway.
B) De-polarised
Now imagine you have a calling station. He will flat a lot of 3bets and rarely 4bet. Now KQ is easily re-raised for value. Against this type of opponent we will not have two, but only one range - a value range which is the top of our range.
Position and polarisation
A lot of players will play 4bet/fold out of position and will call in position. When we raise from the blinds the preflop raiser is likely to call with relatively wide range. It will almost always be a good idea to 3bet a de-polarised range out of position.
Naturally, when you are in position (e.g. BU v CO). They will play more 4bet/fold, so we should polarise our range.
However note that this is not always true, e.g. against a fish you should be still 3betting de-polarised range from any position.
Cliff: The more likely villains are calling a 3bet, the more you should de-polarise your range and the more likely they are to 4bet or folding the more it should be polarised
How do you come up with a polarised range?
A lot of people do it by feel. E.G. A guy gets dealt Q5s OTB and faces a raise he will think: 'Should I 3bet him? MMM.... M.... Nah not this time.
Instead of doing it by random or by feel, you should:
1) Have a range that you are 3betting with 100% of the time.
2) Have a range that you are folding 100% of the time.
Note: I can see many of you will disagree here ;o
Why?
Lets say the deck is rigged, and all we get is either A9o preflop and A2o preflop. We are going to 3bet our opponent 50% of the time. The ones doing it by random/by feel would be 3betting 50% of the time with A9o and folding it half the time, and 3bet 50% A2o and fold it 1/2 the time.
But it doesn't really make sense to 3bet A2o one orbit, and then fold A9o the second orbit. A9o is of course a more profitable hand. A more profitable strategy would be to 3bet A9o 100% of the time, and fold A2o 100% of the time.
You can apply this example to different hand types. e.g. K8s vs Q4s. If you want to 3bet a guy 15% of the time, and do it for value 5% of hands (TT+ AQ+) and add 10% bluffs, you shouldn't be randomly bluffing 10% of the time. You should instead Come up with top 10% of your PF folding range the best hands that you are folding are the best hands to be 3bet bluffing.
To know what hands you can 3bet bluff,you have to know what your calling range is (as it determines your folding range).
Lets say PF, CO opens and we are OTB with KXs. We have to ask ourselves : 'What is the weakest KXs that we can call profitably with?' Lets say its KTs, and K9s is not +ev to flat. Now K9s should be a 100% 3bet. Even if we want to bluff the guy with a low frequency, K9s is still a 100% 3bet.
You can then increase your bluffing frequency by simply dropping down in kicker. E.G. if the weakest you 3bet is K8s against one guy, and you encounter another guy that has 5% higher fold to 3bet, you can now drop down to K5s. You still fold K4s 100% of the time, but you are 3betting K5s K6s K7s 100% of the time.
Cliff: Your 3Bet bluffing range should be the top of your range that is not profitable to flat pre-flop
The value part of your polarised 3betting range:
Just ask yourself 'What is the weakest hand we can profitably 5bet shove all in when we get 4bet?
If the answer is QQ+ AK, then that should be your value range.
!If you can't profitably 5bet shove hands like AQs, JJ when you get 4bet, you shouldn't be 3betting them!
You can see this in the low stakes forum a lot, someone 3bets JJ when his 3betting range should have been polarised and then asks what he should do ;o. Or the geniuses 3betting QQ IP against fit/fold turbonits and then asking what to do against a shove
YOUR READS AND EDGE DETERMINE THE RANGE OF HANDS YOU CAN PLAY PROFITABLY
To know the top of your folding range you need to know your calling range.
What hands can you call profitably PF? That depends on the EDGE(skill advantage) you have on the players, and the READS you have on them.
Example:
Scenario A) A very good player is opening 25% hands on the CO.
Scenario B) A very bad player is opening 25% of hands in the CO.
We are OTB. Here we can call a lot wider in scenario B) than in scenario A). Therefore the top of our folding range(and hands we 3bet bluff with in a polarised range) will be a lot different in both scenarios.
For example if we can call the good player with KJs suited only, and KTs is getting thin, then KTs is the top of our folding range and it should be the first hand we start 3bet bluffing.
Against the poor player we can call even with K7s, so now K6s will be the top of our folding range and will be the first hand we 3bet.
This concept is not explained very well in many instructional videos. Just because Galfond can call a 4bet with QTo oop, doesn't mean you can.
Or not to go to extreme, flatting even AJs in position can be unprofitable against a villain that has relatively tight ranges and completely outclasses us.
This is why standard ranges suck, and how reality check and being realistic about your abilities are so important.
Your opponent's fold to 3bet and 4 betting tendencies determine your 3betting frequencies and range.
Example1: Imagine a player that is so tight he even folds pocket aces to a 3bet. He is so afraid of a bad beat, and he has a weak heart so he just doesn't want to risk a heart attack so he just folds AA to a 3bet.
Even a hand that is a clear foldcall pre-flop like 66 or JTs is now more profitable to 3bet because we win the pot 100% of the time.
Example 2: Imagine a guy that NEVER folds to 3bets. We should NEVER 3bet bluff him, just raise with value.
Cliff: To come up with your 3betting range: Lets say you have QXs. Evaluate what is the worst QXs you call call with (lets say QTs), and then start adding Q9s and the higher his fold to 3bet is the worse kickers you add.
100bb Poker: 'Strong' hands are better than 'Pretty' hands when 3betting
You should give higher priority to for example suited kings than suited connectors when 3betting 100bb deep.
Good 3betting hands 100bb deep that should be the start of any 3bet bluffing range are the off suit aces - they have an ace in them so they are all relatively strong hands, but on top of that they have a blocker effect. Just by having the Ace its some 20% less likely that villain holds TT+ AQ+.
Cliffs:
The more likely villains are calling a 3bet, the more you should de-polarise your range and the more likely they are to be 4bet or folding the more it should be polarised
YOUR READS AND EDGE DETERMINE THE RANGE OF HANDS YOU CAN PLAY PROFITABLY
Your 3Bet bluffing range should be the top of your range that is not profitable to flat pre-flop
To come up with your bluff 3betting range: Lets say you have QXs. Evaluate what is the worst QXs you call call with (lets say QTs), and then start adding Q9s and the higher his fold to 3bet is the worse kickers you add.
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| 93% Sure! | Last edit: 23/06/2011 18:06 |
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after i saw your previous post i realized i've head dc membership for the past 2 years and i havent watched a single video for over a year lol. so i checked this one out and i have to say its really good. altho i had a look on some other vids from that guy and the ones where he's playing a session are pretty shit and probably not worth watching |
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| rivered for my fucking bankroll - NeillyJQ | |
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ChromaX Bulgaria. Nov 28 2010 09:07. Posts 392 | | |
if you want that to work above 50nl , you will need to think about more stuff in depth.
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| AA is only a pair MUPPET - the guy who cracked my AA calling AI pf with QJ | |
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LemOn[5thF] Czech Republic. Nov 28 2010 09:12. Posts 15163 | | | |
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| 93% Sure! | Last edit: 23/06/2011 18:06 |
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LemOn[5thF] Czech Republic. Nov 28 2010 09:13. Posts 15163 | | |
| | On November 28 2010 08:07 ChromaX wrote:
if you want that to work above 50nl , you will need to think about more stuff in depth.
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Good one sir. You obviously don't know me. I think most people here would agree I need to do the exact opposite a lot of the time. |
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| 93% Sure! | Last edit: 28/11/2010 09:14 |
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ChromaX Bulgaria. Nov 28 2010 11:16. Posts 392 | | |
well I didnt mean to offend you, I just read your post and saw you were playing 50nl |
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| AA is only a pair MUPPET - the guy who cracked my AA calling AI pf with QJ | |
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ChromaX Bulgaria. Nov 28 2010 11:50. Posts 392 | | |
then i noticed you didnt talk about some important stuff that i would like you to comment on
"Your opponent's fold to 3bet and 4 betting tendencies determine your 3betting frequencies and range." -thats correct but there is more to it
1 how do we adjust our 3 betting range depending on stacksize , position , image?
2 what about 3 betting pocket pairs /suited connectors?
3 what about 3 bet sizing?
4 "To come up with your bluff 3betting range: Lets say you have QXs. Evaluate what is the worst QXs you call call with (lets say QTs), and then start adding Q9s and the higher his fold to 3bet is the worse kickers you add."
now you hit TP , do you stackoff ? talking about such hands cant be divided from type of villain/postflop plan or you are going to fail
5 what about positional 3bet ranges sb vs bb , CO vs D sb vs D , bb vs D , UTG vs MP/CO ?
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| AA is only a pair MUPPET - the guy who cracked my AA calling AI pf with QJ | |
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bigredhoss Cook Islands. Nov 28 2010 14:40. Posts 8649 | | |
nice post lemon i actually read it all lol
chromax i think most of your comments are missing the point but a couple of those things are (directly or indirectly) addressed in lemon's post anyway |
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Zalfor United States. Nov 29 2010 01:34. Posts 2236 | | |
do ur posts actually make u better at poker? I keep seeing really meaningful posts but somehow i don't see them reflected in your hands... |
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