The danger of science denial

I thought blog title said "the danger of science". was ready to ultra rage.

hmm...
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it's frightening, the amount of people in the world who don't use logic. We should be constantly questioning everything and using logic to get conclusions. People would rather believe something cause someone told them than because it's logical :/
Which links us to the 2nd video, where people tortue others because they were told by authority. Apparently in this world authority beats logic+morality combined
Well, maybe that's actually a good thing. a good amount of the population needs to obey authority without question so we can enslave ourselves and get shit done. And the other half need to be the advisers. heh.

Zimbardo owns

On June 07 2011 08:23 Stroggoz wrote: it's frightening, the amount of people in the world who don't use logic. We should be constantly questioning everything and using logic to get conclusions. People would rather believe something cause someone told them than because it's logical :/ Which links us to the 2nd video, where people tortue others because they were told by authority. Apparently in this world authority beats logic+morality combined Well, maybe that's actually a good thing. a good amount of the population needs to obey authority without question so we can enslave ourselves and get shit done. And the other half need to be the advisers. heh.

-.- one of the main points of the videos was that it is easy to categorize the people who do evil things as "others" and "not me", and not realize how powerful situational causes are and how easy it is for us to rationalize any action we take.

In video 1 he's supporting GM crops but failed to mention there are hundreds of studies that finally show the ill effects they have with regard with your health. Science itself, his friend, is demonstrating this. There needs to be a middle ground to save peoples lives though, i agree with that. I agree with every other statement he's made other than that though, good watch.

On June 07 2011 12:10 Newblish wrote: In video 1 he's supporting GM crops but failed to mention there are hundreds of studies that finally show the ill effects they have with regard with your health. Science itself, his friend, is demonstrating this.

No it's not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GM_food_controversy#Health_risks_and_benefits

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetically_modified_food#Health_risks

I'm not reading those entire entries. I took environmental studies in University and have been on those pages hundreds of times. I know what they say. Problem is that I dont really know what to believe because I have seen real documented proof in my classroom(study after study) of GM foods causing cancer in mice, allergies in humans, amongst other things. The evidence isnt substantial at all, i never claimed it was. There is evidence out there though, especially when studying mice/other animals. Go read up on how allergies work - Basically our bodies are used to things in a certain form(for this discussion it's food and food in its natural form), when it deviates it causes an allergy or a higher risk of an allergy. I should go look up my class notes from years back because it was easily convincing that GM crops are not the way to go for your long-term health.

Anyway, I chose to eat organic fruits/vegetables because the evidence just isnt substantial enough to say GM crops are safe. If they are, so be it but in the meantime I spend an extra bit of money on organic food just to make sure.

Here are two really interesting articles on the subject written by Mercola(some might know him, almost everyone believes hes one of the most trustworthy people in the health field) -

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/art...10/04/03/jeffrey-smith-interview.aspx

http://articles.mercola.com/sites/art...avoid-genetically-modified-foods.aspx

There's a ton of real evidence out there against it(based on real studies), so the wiki entry is wrong when it says there are no documented studies showing any correlation between GM foods/ill health effects. Either way, I dont generally like debating on LP, i try to stay away from it. So ill just leave it at that - this is the one and only response, just wanted to check out the videos tbh -.-

Joseph Mercola is a nut. For the sake of other ppl reading I'm just going to copy paste his info from wiki

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Food consumption

Mercola advocates a diet consisting mostly of unprocessed foods. He sees value in paleolithic diets and advocates metabolic typing.[12] He encourages using water filters, including the process of reverse osmosis, to purify drinking water, opposes drinking water with chlorine, and is strongly opposed to water fluoridation.

Mercola also recommends avoiding pasteurized milk, homogenized milk, most fish (due to mercury content), trans fats, corn and canola oil, unfermented soy products, artificial sweeteners, sugar, starches, and for those with elevated insulin levels (such as anyone who is overweight, diabetic, or has high blood pressure or high cholesterol) he also advises avoiding all grain products ("even whole unprocessed grains, and alternative grains like quinoa, amaranth, millet and teff", fruit juices (including fresh-squeezed fruit juices), and canned, packaged or artificial foods. This is very similar to what is often called a Paleolithic diet.

Mercola's dietary recommendations often put him at odds with mainstream dietary advice. Recent epidemiological studies suggest that grains may have a protective effect against type 1 diabetes,[13] and that a whole-grain diet strongly protects adults against type 2 diabetes.[14]

Mercola encourages the ingestion of unprocessed saturated fats, including unrefined coconut oil.[15] The American Heart Association disagrees, stating that saturated fats contribute to heart disease.[16] Recent academic reviews agree that replacing saturated fats with polyunsaturated fats can help prevent heart disease, although the effects of the individual types of unsaturated fatty acids is a complex and largely unresolved question.[17][18]
[edit] Food preparation

Mercola's website has called microwave ovens dangerous, claiming that microwaving food alters its chemistry.[19][20] Mercola offers non-microwave, convection ovens for sale in his store.[21] In contrast, academic reviews have concluded that "no significant nutritional differences exist between foods prepared by conventional and microwave methods."22] Other studies have suggested that food cooked in microwave ovens can be more nutritious than conventionally-cooked food.[23][24] The Harvard Medical School Family Health Guide states that "as a general proposition, cooking with a microwave probably does a better job of preserving the nutrient content of foods because the cooking times are shorter."25]

Mercola is also against homogenization,[26] claiming that it leads to xanthine oxidase absorption and oxidative stress.[27] This idea has been described as "tenuous and implausible" in the Journal of the American Medical Association.[28] A review published in the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition concluded that "Experimental evidence has failed to substantiate, and in many cases has refuted, the xanthine oxidase/plasmalogen depletion hypothesis".[29]
[edit] Drugs and supplements

Mercola opposes the use of most prescription drugs and immunizations, favoring what he calls natural food choices, lifestyle modifications and energy psychology tools to address emotional challenges.[30] He promotes and sells numerous dietary supplements, including krill oil, vitamin K, probiotics, and anti-oxidant supplements.

Mercola is especially critical of new drugs, as well as the U.S. Food and Drug Administration.[31] He dismisses many conventional health concerns and medications as useless at best and potentially toxic or fatal at worst. He prescribes exercise, good diet, good sleep, specially filtered water, chlorella, omega-3 fats, and energy psychology methods like Emotional Freedom Technique as an overall cure for most ills.

"I am quite confident that if gravity had to be approved by the FDA it would clearly meet strong resistance from the multi-national drug corporations."citation needed] - Joseph Mercola

[edit] HIV and AIDS

Mercola has been outspoken in his views that HIV is not the cause of AIDS,[32] a view which is not held by mainstream medical science. He also claims on his website to have been the editor of a publication called HIV Monograph, published by Abbott Laboratories,[33] however, he is not listed on the actual publication.[34]
[edit] Sunscreen

Mercola has also claimed that the use of sunscreen increases, not decreases, the likelihood of contracting skin cancer with high UV exposure.[35] This view is not held by mainstream medical science; in 2011, the National Toxicology Program stated that "Protection against photodamage by use of broad-spectrum sunscreens is well-documented as an effective means of reducing total lifetime UV dose and, thereby, preventing or ameliorating the effects of UV radiation on both the appearance and biomechanical properties of the skin".[36]
[edit] Vaccinations

Mercola has been highly critical of vaccines and vaccination policy, claiming that too many vaccines are used too soon during infancy.[37] He hosts vaccine critics on his website, advocates preventive measures rather than vaccination in many cases, and strongly criticizes influenza vaccines.

Mercola argues that thimerosal, previously widely used as a vaccine preservative, is harmful.[38] Thimerosal is no longer present in most vaccines given to young children in the USA, though it is still present in some vaccines approved for adults.[39] Extensive evidence has accumulated since 1999 showing that this preservative is safe,[38] with the World Health Organization stating in 2006 that "there is no evidence of toxicity in infants, children or adults exposed to thiomersal in vaccines".[40]

In his book The Great Bird Flu Hoax,[41] Mercola appears to take a stronger anti-pharmaceutical industry stance by accusing them of a fear-mongering marketing campaign against the public. In supporting this stance, Mercola often has wholly critical views of those working in governmental health care, as well as towards international health organizations. He argues at length that concern over swine flu and the resulting immunizations were actually false alarms put forth to terrify the public.[42] The World Health Organization reports that by 1 August 2010 about 18,500 deaths have been caused by the H1N1 pandemic influenza.[43]
[edit] Natural parenting

In October 2010, Mercola announced plans to produce a breastmilk alternative for mothers who may experience difficulty in breastfeeding their infants. Many of his fans were upset by the announcements and questioned his ethics, marketing an artificial formula product when donor milk banks provide a nutritionally adequate food for human infants. However, Mercola had explained in the announcement (when it was originally posted on his website) that the intent is to provide an alternative nutritional source for infants that they should normally get from breastmilk, even if their mothers aren't able to nurse. This controversy also ignited a discussion over his stance on infant circumcision.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola

Further medical articles about how crazy mercola is http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/i...nore-joseph-mercola-and-natural-news/

He is not one of the most trustworthy people in health, he is a whack job. He is the embodiment of everything Spector is saying is wrong with people.

On June 07 2011 12:57 Newblish wrote: I'm not reading those entire entries. I took environmental studies in University and have been on those pages hundreds of times. I know what they say. Problem is that I dont really know what to believe because I have seen real documented proof in my classroom(study after study) of GM foods causing cancer in mice, allergies in humans, amongst other things. The evidence isnt substantial at all, i never claimed it was. There is evidence out there though, especially when studying mice/other animals. Go read up on how allergies work - Basically our bodies are used to things in a certain form(for this discussion it's food and food in its natural form), when it deviates it causes an allergy or a higher risk of an allergy. I should go look up my class notes from years back because it was easily convincing that GM crops are not the way to go for your long-term health. Anyway, I chose to eat organic fruits/vegetables because the evidence just isnt substantial enough to say GM crops are safe. If they are, so be it but in the meantime I spend an extra bit of money on organic food just to make sure. Here are two really interesting articles on the subject written by Mercola(some might know him, almost everyone believes hes one of the most trustworthy people in the health field) - http://articles.mercola.com/sites/art...10/04/03/jeffrey-smith-interview.aspx http://articles.mercola.com/sites/art...avoid-genetically-modified-foods.aspx There's a ton of real evidence out there against it(based on real studies), so the wiki entry is wrong when it says there are no documented studies showing any correlation between GM foods/ill health effects. Either way, I dont generally like debating on LP, i try to stay away from it. So ill just leave it at that - this is the one and only response, just wanted to check out the videos tbh -.-

Would you rather Africa, when we tried to give them a strain of grain that would have made it easy to grow grain in extremely harsh conditions and produce a large amount of food, have taken the grain and risk potential health problems or deny it and allow hundreds of thousands of people to starve because of it.

The side effects are most likely there, as DNA is being changed and new factors have to be considered. However, when you get some of these morons claiming "frankenfood" is going to poison the world and all science in the field must be stopped, that is when the discussion has to stop. Picket and protest all you want claiming we need more testing on the problems that have arisen, but don't EVER try to stop science that could save millions in the world from starvation.

Ok, i really dont care about debating/responding, i couldnt care less what anyone thinks about this. It's everyones job to figure out whats correct and whats not based on what they see in front of them.

All ill quickly say is - You showed me a site that bitches about nothing but vaccines/medicine and a wikipedia article that tells people about him/his work/some of his claims/controversies. Do you ACTUALLY believe Mercola is a scammer despite the fact that millions of people subscribe to him, agree with his work and promote his ideas? I forgot where i read the statistic but apparently his site is one of the fastest growing health sites and people are giving him very good reviews. People must be incredibly stupid(and alot of them at that) to blindly follow him if he is in fact a scammer. It's funny how little of his work can actually be refuted because every single day he has a new article about something which is ALWAYS based on scientific analysis/reason. So if people want to poke at him and claim hes mistaken about a thing or two i doubt he gives a shit.

Anyway, I'm 100% not going to respond back, Im sorry. I just dont care enough to debate anymore. Just wanted to watch the videos and make a quick comment :o

On June 07 2011 13:51 Carthac wrote: Show nested quote + On June 07 2011 12:57 Newblish wrote: I'm not reading those entire entries. I took environmental studies in University and have been on those pages hundreds of times. I know what they say. Problem is that I dont really know what to believe because I have seen real documented proof in my classroom(study after study) of GM foods causing cancer in mice, allergies in humans, amongst other things. The evidence isnt substantial at all, i never claimed it was. There is evidence out there though, especially when studying mice/other animals. Go read up on how allergies work - Basically our bodies are used to things in a certain form(for this discussion it's food and food in its natural form), when it deviates it causes an allergy or a higher risk of an allergy. I should go look up my class notes from years back because it was easily convincing that GM crops are not the way to go for your long-term health. Anyway, I chose to eat organic fruits/vegetables because the evidence just isnt substantial enough to say GM crops are safe. If they are, so be it but in the meantime I spend an extra bit of money on organic food just to make sure. Here are two really interesting articles on the subject written by Mercola(some might know him, almost everyone believes hes one of the most trustworthy people in the health field) - http://articles.mercola.com/sites/art...10/04/03/jeffrey-smith-interview.aspx http://articles.mercola.com/sites/art...avoid-genetically-modified-foods.aspx There's a ton of real evidence out there against it(based on real studies), so the wiki entry is wrong when it says there are no documented studies showing any correlation between GM foods/ill health effects. Either way, I dont generally like debating on LP, i try to stay away from it. So ill just leave it at that - this is the one and only response, just wanted to check out the videos tbh -.- Would you rather Africa, when we tried to give them a strain of grain that would have made it easy to grow grain in extremely harsh conditions and produce a large amount of food, have taken the grain and risk potential health problems or deny it and allow hundreds of thousands of people to starve because of it. The side effects are most likely there, as DNA is being changed and new factors have to be considered. However, when you get some of these morons claiming "frankenfood" is going to poison the world and all science in the field must be stopped, that is when the discussion has to stop. Picket and protest all you want claiming we need more testing on the problems that have arisen, but don't EVER try to stop science that could save millions in the world from starvation.

Pretty sure i said that there needs to be a middle ground between how we use GM crops related to health and saving lives in my first paragraph, let me check - : "There needs to be a middle ground to save peoples lives though, i agree with that. I agree with every other statement he's made other than that though, good watch."

Let me check..... yup i said it.. Thanks for reading my entire argument. You act like im 100% against them or something - I'm not. All I did was say there is evidence showing their potential health hazards.

pfft. i think most people can be very capable of doing horrendous things. It's just the luck of the dice roll that we weren't exposed to the shit nessacary to breed and teach someone to do evil things.

shit if someone just slaughtered/tortured etc your family/loved ones i'm pretty sure most of us will go at huge lengths for vengeance. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be capable of that kind of forgiveness and benevolence and just go

On June 07 2011 14:09 Newblish wrote: Do you ACTUALLY believe Mercola is a scammer despite the fact that millions of people subscribe to him, agree with his work and promote his ideas? I forgot where i read the statistic but apparently his site is one of the fastest growing health sites and people are giving him very good reviews. People must be incredibly stupid(and alot of them at that) to blindly follow him if he is in fact a scammer.

I don't care to enter this debate on GMOs but millions of people blindly following someone because of incredible stupidity is what occured and still occurs with respect to vaccines.

Having watched 10mins of the first video, I realised the guy is on a Pharma-promoting tour. So he promotes GMO and vaccines, great. I think most Europeans here know very well how dangerous GMO is and how distasteful GMO foods are. What most people don't realise ,however, is that vaccines are way more dangerous and to prove my point I will leave the argumentation to Kent Hovind. Please just watch it before you come after me, okay? And to cut things short for palak, I will post his wiki info - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind - yes, another crazy whackjob. I don't agree with him on many topics but this short lecture is pretty spot on with LOTS of referrence to studies and statistics tables leading to internet links so that you can check them out. So just examine the facts he states. I would be glad if we skip the discredition part for once and just look at the evidence, shall we?

Having watched 10mins of the first video, I realised the guy is on a Pharma-promoting tour. So he promotes GMO and vaccines, great. I think most Europeans here know very well how dangerous GMO is and how distasteful GMO foods are. What most people don't realise ,however, is that vaccines are way more dangerous and to prove my point I will leave the argumentation to Kent Hovind. Please just watch it before you come after me, okay? And to cut things short for palak, I will post his wiki info - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind - yes, another crazy whackjob. I don't agree with him on many topics but this short lecture is pretty spot on with LOTS of referrence to studies and statistics tables leading to internet links so that you can check them out. So just examine the facts he states. I would be glad if we skip the discredition part for once and just look at the evidence, shall we?

I don't trust Mercola. If you follow his site/articles he's constantly trying to sell supplements and products. If your eating "correctly" you shouldn't really need supplements -- at least thats my view. I don't really buy into this idea he has of optimising his health even further by supplementing X. I don't believe he's a whackjob though and i don't believe any diet advice is set in stone, including paleo. Mercola's wiki article does deliver both brief sides of the arguement but it does make him look unfairly bad imo especially to the average reader. It wouldn't surprise me if Mercola (or anyone else) was wrong on a bunch of things because it's hard to be right always in the health/nutrition field. The food pyramid/plate, mercola's advice, or any of the other diets out there may be right for some people and wrong for others. It's an extremely complicated subject (the body) but i agree with Mercola in getting things as unprocessed and as close to natural as you can.

Some things though:

Quoting Mercola: Homogenization: This is the process whereby the fat particles of cream are strained through tiny pores under great pressure. The resulting fat particles are so small that they stay in suspension rather than rise to the top of the milk. This makes the fat and cholesterol more susceptible to rancidity and oxidation, and some research indicates that homogenized fats may contribute to heart disease.58

source

As i've always understood it the only reason milk is homogenised is to avoid cream lines appearing on store milk. I don't care about cream lines and personally believe this is stupid to put milk through this process. If you don't like milk, don't drink it and don't try to make it into something it's not. I've had plenty of the organic/grass fed raw variety and it tastes marvelous. If theres a cream line that bothers you, shake it up for like 5 seconds and you're good. Lots of people drink unpasteurised milk and have no issues. It is true though that there is always a small risk of becoming sick if your milk is bad but put it in perspective -- that is true for nearly all food we buy including pasteurised milk which has no bacteria left in it to ward off/neutralise contaminants.

I don't believe saturated fat is something you should necessarily be avoiding. I think if that is all you eat then maybe thats where it might be a problem but for example, people cut the fat off grass fed steak because they're going to get heart disease then go about eating commercial butter and don't have any idea how retarded it is.

I don't trust GM foods. I don't really have much else to say about it.

On June 07 2011 14:39 D_smart_S wrote: Having watched 10mins of the first video, I realised the guy is on a Pharma-promoting tour. So he promotes GMO and vaccines, great. I think most Europeans here know very well how dangerous GMO is and how distasteful GMO foods are. What most people don't realise ,however, is that vaccines are way more dangerous and to prove my point I will leave the argumentation to Kent Hovind. Please just watch it before you come after me, okay? And to cut things short for palak, I will post his wiki info - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_Hovind - yes, another crazy whackjob. I don't agree with him on many topics but this short lecture is pretty spot on with LOTS of referrence to studies and statistics tables leading to internet links so that you can check them out. So just examine the facts he states. I would be glad if we skip the discredition part for once and just look at the evidence, shall we?

I am not watching the video and not going to shit filled internet links.

Vaccine are good, you are alive because of them, Stop spewing none sense.

Science has as much of a following/cult as any other thing. Lots of branches of brilliance but lots of crazy fucking retards. The biggest difference is long term science should always deviate away from the fucked retarded people/theories/attempts, instead converging to long term, positive affects. Science teaches you all the outliers as being a part of the process so I don't look at all the whacky people in disgust however it's sucks watching so many people waste their thoughts/time/theory and try to push it onto other people.

ill respond in more detail later buy newb think about this. If you agree with the speech spector gave except for gmos then u disagree with mercola on almost everything. You disagree with mercola about the cause of aids, the merits of sunscreen, the safety of microwave, and most importantly about the use of vaccinees especially with regard to mmr. Who is one of the leaders of the anti-vaccinee movement? Mercola ( http://www.skepdic.com/mercola.html ). If you disagree majorly with him on all other views besides gmos this man is clearly someone who you would not think should he considered good at his profession as u agree with only 1 out of his 6 premises listed. Further u should see that it is easily possibld for people to flock to someone who is completely wrong on everything ( according to scientific consensus ). Yet you are leaping to defend him as a man who is of high scientific intelligence. Just because someones website is growing quickly doesnt make it right. The ID movement was growing for many yrs before it finally went away ( as much as it ever will) to say that movement had any merit due to its growth is a blatent falsehood. The anti vaccinee movement is the same, just because it is growing rapidly among lay ppl ( and natural drs reports/"studies" does not give it a shred of credibility. The same logic follows for a movement against gmos.