he's 2% 3b man

This is probably a pretty standart spot, and i should know what to do here when 4betting, but i'm playing kind of bad lately and just wondered how you guys play out this hand on this board. 200bb effective stacks.

turn Jc
river 2h

On February 15 2013 11:39 bigredhoss wrote: he's 2% 3b man

yea i thought that was kind of good and bad, cause i thought he wouldn't 3bet any AK hands preflop this deep. only 200 hands tho. i should have folded and just avoided this spot i guess, but once i 4bet what would you do in this spot barrel, barrel, give up ?

I'd just call pre cos we are getting pretty good odds w ATs and x/call this flop.

I think you dont need to raise anything on this kind of flop..

no clue what to do as played tbh, i probably bet between 1/3-1/2 pot i guess, leaning towards 1/2 because i'd want him to at least fold AK on flop (if he can have it). at the very least he probably won't be raising you with much of anything this deep.

its just 200 hands from him,so his 3bet % is just a tendency still.
I think normally this deep u should either 4bet or call,never fold.
But given your lack of confidence a fold is probably best here.

Now that you have decided to 4bet though,and you have hit a very good flop for your hand,you gotta play it aggressive on flop and turn.River might be a give up then if he is still in the hand or another barrell depending on board texture and general feeling.
You could even overbet the river to try to make him fold 1010 or QQ with that J and 2 runout but in general since JJ is a liekly holding for him and you dont know that much about him yet,you should probably give up river.

this deep i prefer betting 3/4 pot on flop and at least 3/4 on that turn,if not pot.

2% 3b... just blockbet and give urself a good price to draw vs his range which is 100% calling

On February 15 2013 12:38 Mardagg wrote: its just 200 hands from him,so his 3bet % is just a tendency still. I think normally this deep u should either 4bet or call,never fold. But given your lack of confidence a fold is probably best here. Now that you have decided to 4bet though,and you have hit a very good flop for your hand,you gotta play it aggressive on flop and turn.River might be a give up then if he is still in the hand or another barrell depending on board texture and general feeling. You could even overbet the river to try to make him fold 1010 or QQ with that J and 2 runout but in general since JJ is a liekly holding for him and you dont know that much about him yet,you should probably give up river. this deep i prefer betting 3/4 pot on flop and at least 3/4 on that turn,if not pot.

so the deeper you get the less position matters? if its spewy to play ATs out of position 100bb deep, its still gonna be spewy deeper. Good thing a lot of people think like this, i find people play terrible deepstacked and start to way overvalue implied odds versus good solid poker - at the end of the day most flops that we hit will be Txx and Axx, where its very easily to be dominated in both spots - it gets even worse if you dont know how your opponent plays

Stacks aren't big enough for that sizing. i could bet like (approx)

20$ in to 37.5$ on flop
40$ in to 77.5$ on turn
115$ in to 157.5$ on river

but i think i should just bet flop and turn and give up on river, cause i don't think that our FE is that great.

I would just go something like 1/3 on each street, if he has QQ-KK and didnt wanna get it in pre, he will likley just continue flatting on all streets

this hand is made up again the cleaner,no?

Because what says pot size 37.5 on the flop cant be right if he 3bets you to 9.5 and you 4bet him for 16.5 more to 26.
With a pot size on the flop of 37.5 my idea of 3/4 flop and turn is certainly doable,giving enough room on river.
but with the true pot size being 52 this isnt true anymore.

@ TT

when i made my post i thought villian was minreraising the cleaner to 6.5 and not for 6.5 to 9.5.
Such a minreraise normally means bad player to me and i dont care at all about position vs bad players,the more deep the better.
ANd generally what you say is true for 400+,but at 100 NL people have so many leaks postflop and arent used to play deep that hands that can flop big are playable deep and not so for 100bb because the money you can make if you hit is lower.
This flop is the best example since you can barrell flop and turn without risking the whole stack this deep while having still room on the river whereas with 100bb sized postflop play gets different.

Of course if you are up vs a decent or good reg u should avoid being oop deep.

^just fyi sizing is 3-6.5-19.5

haha,not its not that easy,because with a 19.5 sizing u cant achieve a flop pot of 37.5

lol but with 26 or 16.5 you can? I know i'm right because it says "Player5 calls [$13.00 USD]" and 13+6.5 is 19.5

yes,i know what you mean.But why does it say flop pot 37.5?
We just need clarification from the cleaner here,because something is certainly wrong here with the listed sizing

On February 15 2013 11:41 the cleaner wrote: This is probably a pretty standart spot, and i should know what to do here when 4betting, but i'm playing kind of bad lately and just wondered how you guys play out this hand on this board. 200bb effective stacks. turn Jc river 2h

it isn't standard when you opponent has 2% 3-bet, his range is so incredibly strong, you are spewing very hard here

if you're not comfortable, why play deep tables?

On February 15 2013 15:06 Trolala wrote: if you're not comfortable, why play deep tables?

He doubled up and now he's deep with a giant fish.

i didn't say i wasn't comfortable playing deep. and yeah that's the hand. i played this so badly

Submitted by : the cleaner

***** Hand History for Game 1111111111 ***** Poker Stars
$100.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Friday, February 15, 08:04:21 ET 2013
Table Triangulum 2 Real Money
Seat 1 is the button
Seat 1: Player1 $267.19 USD - VPIP: 16, PFR: 11, 3B: 5, AF: 3.0, Hands: 108
Seat 2: Player2 $100.00 USD - VPIP: 14, PFR: 12, 3B: 5, AF: 2.0, Hands: 104
Seat 3: Player3 $100.00 USD - VPIP: 11, PFR: 11, 3B: 0, AF: 0.5, Hands: 45
Seat 4: Hero $190.55 USD - VPIP: 22, PFR: 17, 3B: 8, AF: 2.9, Hands: 743374
Seat 5: Player5 $190.93 USD - VPIP: 24, PFR: 15, 3B: 2, AF: 2.8, Hands: 200
Seat 6: Player6 $232.56 USD - VPIP: 48, PFR: 15, 3B: 9, AF: 3.0, Hands: 27
Player2 posts small blind [$0.50 USD].
Player3 posts big blind [$1.00 USD].

Holecards
Dealt to Hero [ ]
Hero raises [$3.00 USD]
Player5 raises [$6.50 USD]
Player6 folds
Player1 folds
Player2 folds
Player3 folds
Hero raises [$16.50 USD]
Player5 calls [$13.00 USD]

Flop (Pot : $37.50)

   
Hero bets [$24.50 USD]
Player5 calls [$24.50 USD]

Turn (Pot : $86.50)

   
Hero checks
Player5 bets [$5.00 USD]
Hero raises [$55.50 USD]
Player5 calls [$50.50 USD]

River (Pot : $197.50)

   
Hero bets [$91.05 USD]
Player5 calls [$91.05 USD]
Hero shows
Player5 shows
Player5 wins $379.80 USD from main pot

File: HH20130215 Triangulum #2 - $0.50-$1 - USD No Limit Holdem.txt
PokerStars Zoom Hand #94071756653: Holdem No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2013/02/15 8:04:21 ET
Table Triangulum 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: grobipoker ($267.19 in chips)
Seat 2: tiger666777 ($100 in chips)
Seat 3: DooMeRFD ($100 in chips)
Seat 4: the clêaner ($190.55 in chips)
Seat 5: TonyGPT ($190.93 in chips)
Seat 6: Amme77 ($232.56 in chips)
tiger666777: posts small blind $0.50
DooMeRFD: posts big blind $1

Holecards(Odds)
Dealt to the clêaner
the clêaner: raises $2 to $3
TonyGPT: raises $3.50 to $6.50
Amme77: folds
grobipoker: folds
tiger666777: folds
DooMeRFD: folds
the clêaner: raises $13 to $19.50
TonyGPT: calls $13

Flop(Odds) (Pot : $40.50)

   
the clêaner: bets $24.50
TonyGPT: calls $24.50

Turn(Odds) (Pot : $89.50)

   
the clêaner: checks
TonyGPT: bets $5
the clêaner: raises $50.50 to $55.50
TonyGPT: calls $50.50

River (Pot : $200.50)

   
the clêaner: bets $91.05 and is all-in
TonyGPT: calls $91.05

Showdown
the clêaner: shows (a pair of Nines)
TonyGPT: shows (a full house, Jacks full of Nines)
TonyGPT collected $379.80 from pot

Summary
Total pot $382.60 | Rake $2.80
Board  
Seat 1: grobipoker (button) folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 2: tiger666777 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: DooMeRFD (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: the clêaner showed and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 5: TonyGPT showed and won ($379.80) with a full house, Jacks full of Nines
Seat 6: Amme77 folded before Flop (didnt bet)

ah,now it makes sense with pot being 40.5 on the flop with the second hand history.
Thx for clarifiying.

I think for some reason the hand history converter doesn't takes antes into consideration or something, when copy/pasting with stats from Hem. Now i had to post that embarrassing hand, but that's good i rather look like a fool, if that helps me stop doing stupid stuff like this.

roflmao at the 5$ turn bet, i guess he accomplished what he wanted to :D

Against someone with a 2% 3bet 200bb deep I'd 4bet AA-KK and setmine all other pairs ;p

on river c-c is better than shoving (but c-f >>>>>>>>>>>> c-c >>> shove obv)

3% is meaningless since it's only in 200 hands
don't think people should base the decision in that

it's 2% and it's not meaningless...just because there's a decent margin for error doesn't mean it isn't correct to infer something from the info, and it's very likely that someone with 2% 3b over 200 hands has tighter than average 3b range (particularly here where it's +1 3betting UTG).

whats also more relevant is that its 2% when hes posting the hand, at the time it was likely 1% over 190 hands or so, villain 3-betting here will double that 1% to 2%

if he's 3betting JJ and JJ+AKo are 3% of total hands and if he knows the basic and have a 3betting bluff range + the fact that he have JJ in his 3betting value range vs an UTG opener
even if he's dumb and he's 3bewtting range is always the same vs all positions he should have an average 5-6% 3bet
the hands itself shows that is meaningless