okei im a little confused here:
why do you lead the turn ? do you do it for value ?
What is your river plan when you lead ?
-i would keep it more simple. i would never lead the turn here
i would ch call turn and ch reevaluate river. As played id bet 22.34 to get value from a Q and call shove because your line is weird and we might induce the raise.

why lead this turn? his flat doesn't define his hand at all and if he raised you would have to fold.
are you doing this because you don't want to c/c this specific turn or are you afraid of him checking back his pair+ draw equity?
the problem imo is that if you check river you can never have the nuts (one thing I assume you tried to do with the lead) and if you bet it you are very rarely getting called by worse
edit
oops didn't see the above post ^^

if you lead this turn then he will fold his bluffs and call his nutted hands, if you ch call you keep his bluffs in the hand. river is the same reasoning. If he checks back the river he would not call your bet anyway

Leading the turn is fine with all our continuing range , and in this particular spot we do not need to have a flop 3bet range. We could call his flop raise and lead the turn with all our sets/overpairs/qx. We do not want to check call the top of our range and check the turn vs unknown because we have no idea what they are raising flop with and what they are doing afterwards. They might be raising the nuts or qx or a gutshot or a4 and they also might check turn and get 2 free cards. So leading turn with everything we continue is best. On this river it's a pretty trivial shove. If u do not shove this river with kk..you should not have a shoving range and u should also check your sets.

i thinki was a bit tilted today

3b flop IMO

i think having a turn lead range is kinda stupid - esp on this exact turn, maybe if the 4 pairs I can see myself leading sometimes, thats about it

The problem with not having a lead range on the turn, is that villain can be raising a wide enough range on the flop that includes alot of medium strength hands ( bluffcatchers) which will check behind on the turn, so hands that are near the top of our range will win a smaller pot on the river when turn goes check/check and we bet the river. We also give some more breathing room to villain to suck out on us with hands like 910 .a 4 etc which have increased equity vs our continuing range due to us checking the turn and giving them a free river card. 3betting the flop also has problems since our goal should be to play the widest range possible at all times. When we only call the flop raise, our continuing range contains alot of qx hands and kk is now on the middle-top of our range. If we 3bet the flop, our range is alot more narrow, kk is now near the bottom of our range and this becomes a problem for the weaker part of our range that we want to continue with. If we are only calling the flop raise with qx, and 3betting aq+ /overpairs/sets, we are pretty much splitting our range into a weak calling range that will be forced to c/c turn and c/f alot of rivers and a very strong 3betting range that villain should be making tight folds against. Either way its easy to play against and bad for our range.

On April 03 2013 18:33 Pb wrote: The problem with not having a lead range on the turn, is that villain can be raising a wide enough range on the flop that includes alot of medium strength hands ( bluffcatchers) which will check behind on the turn, so hands that are near the top of our range will win a smaller pot on the river when turn goes check/check and we bet the river. We also give some more breathing room to villain to suck out on us with hands like 910 .a 4 etc which have increased equity vs our continuing range due to us checking the turn and giving them a free river card. 3betting the flop also has problems since our goal should be to play the widest range possible at all times. When we only call the flop raise, our continuing range contains alot of qx hands and kk is now on the middle-top of our range. If we 3bet the flop, our range is alot more narrow, kk is now near the bottom of our range and this becomes a problem for the weaker part of our range that we want to continue with. If we are only calling the flop raise with qx, and 3betting aq+ /overpairs/sets, we are pretty much splitting our range into a weak calling range that will be forced to c/c turn and c/f alot of rivers and a very strong 3betting range that villain should be making tight folds against. Either way its easy to play against and bad for our range.

just because we make the pot bigger when we lead turn it doesn't mean that he is going to call down with all these bluff catchers he is supposed to be raising on flop when we bet river too. I seriously expect him to fml-call with Q8s if we bet river 2/3 after leading turn. We inflate the pot willingly oop without knowing where we stand just to prevent him from showing down cheaper when he is behind, after the only draw got there
Idk if you realize it but him checking back this specific turn isn't a bad result for us

^^ villian checking turn here would be a fist pump for me if he flats my turn lead i'm 100% lost

On April 03 2013 18:33 Pb wrote: The problem with not having a lead range on the turn, is that villain can be raising a wide enough range on the flop that includes alot of medium strength hands ( bluffcatchers) which will check behind on the turn, so hands that are near the top of our range will win a smaller pot on the river when turn goes check/check and we bet the river. We also give some more breathing room to villain to suck out on us with hands like 910 .a 4 etc which have increased equity vs our continuing range due to us checking the turn and giving them a free river card. 3betting the flop also has problems since our goal should be to play the widest range possible at all times. When we only call the flop raise, our continuing range contains alot of qx hands and kk is now on the middle-top of our range. If we 3bet the flop, our range is alot more narrow, kk is now near the bottom of our range and this becomes a problem for the weaker part of our range that we want to continue with. If we are only calling the flop raise with qx, and 3betting aq+ /overpairs/sets, we are pretty much splitting our range into a weak calling range that will be forced to c/c turn and c/f alot of rivers and a very strong 3betting range that villain should be making tight folds against. Either way its easy to play against and bad for our range.

this posts demonstates the power of position, its why the guy in position tends to win all the money. 3-betting flop IMO is way better then Call / leading as it looks way fishier, I can see opponents peeling any pair / gutter if we size it well. You also didn't mention in your flop that we can 3b bluff the flop - you also forgot to mention its a BVB war, where people do the stupidest shit, 3-betting looks very full of shit unless you and your opponent are both straight forward mega nits

To lebowski : If we lead turn /shove river and we add some weaker qx hands there , villain should not be correct in folding hands that are in the middle of his flop raising range e.g qk/qj type of hands.Q8 is the top of villains range on this river. If he is folding this , then this is very bad for us and we should really reconsider what we are leading turn/shoving river with. We do inflate the pot but it is with the top of our range here and playing a big pot with the top of our range vs an unknown is fine .If we check/call turn check/eval river as you suggested we also do not know where we stand, we have to be making assumptions based on his betsize and timing tells which may well be wrong if this guy is unknown. So we should play our range instead. As for checking back on this turn, imagine how easily villain can exploit this when you bet this river and villain shows qj.
To TT: Just curious as to what do you do with hands like qj/q10 vs a flop raise. Do you 3bet them too , call or fold?.

On April 04 2013 02:22 Pb wrote: To lebowski : If we lead turn /shove river and we add some weaker qx hands there , villain should not be correct in folding hands that are in the middle of his flop raising range e.g qk/qj type of hands.Q8 is the top of villains range on this river. If he is folding this , then this is very bad for us and we should really reconsider what we are leading turn/shoving river with. We do inflate the pot but it is with the top of our range here and playing a big pot with the top of our range vs an unknown is fine .If we check/call turn check/eval river as you suggested we also do not know where we stand, we have to be making assumptions based on his betsize and timing tells which may well be wrong if this guy is unknown. So we should play our range instead. As for checking back on this turn, imagine how easily villain can exploit this when you bet this river and villain shows qj. To TT: Just curious as to what do you do with hands like qj/q10 vs a flop raise. Do you 3bet them too , call or fold?.

Q8 isn't the top of his range, there are sets and straights which make quite a few combos. Below these are some weird two pairs like 89s or 84s partly excluded and the we are up against the top pair good kicker for value hands, some pair+ draw hands and a few complete airball hands. KK is also not the top of our own range, it's far up, but donk turn shove river is a clear overplay the way the board has come.
If villain has QJo for some stupid reason, then in the scenario we bet bet bet he would have lost 3 streets of value; by raising flop he puts most of the money from the first 2 streets of value in the pot himself, then we can bet the river and get the 3rd one ourselves. If you think that this is exploitable then consider that turns aren't going to be like this in all runouts and this is nl, we can bet as much as we want when we think we are ahead on the river

I would consider top of his range anything above tpgk, Also top of our range. Just think how easy it is to play against someone whose turn lead/river shove range is always sets and straights .Also vs someone who 3bets flop with sets and calls with Qx. Apart from the fact that villain can then fold everything but the nuts- therefore you aren't really getting payed with your monsters, you cant really support many bluffs on the river since your betting range is so narrow(although on this board you don't really rep any bluffs when you call the flop) As for the qjo example, it can be alot of different bluffcatchery type of hands that may call or fold the river.Scenario 1) he calls with a qjo type of hand the flop/turn/river and we are betting the river with a range that he does not make any money calling/folding the river .We bet the flop 4$ into 5.5$ he calls, pot is now 13.5$, we bet 10$ on 13.5$ he calls pot is now 33.5$. The pot is now bigger on the river than the above example, where he c/r flop and checked turn. As for the river , we cannot overbet it in spots where we do not have enough bluffs.

On April 04 2013 08:06 Pb wrote: I would consider top of his range anything above tpgk, Also top of our range. Just think how easy it is to play against someone whose turn lead/river shove range is always sets and straights .Also vs someone who 3bets flop with sets and calls with Qx. Apart from the fact that villain can then fold everything but the nuts- therefore you aren't really getting payed with your monsters, you cant really support many bluffs on the river since your betting range is so narrow(although on this board you don't really rep any bluffs when you call the flop) As for the qjo example, it can be alot of different bluffcatchery type of hands that may call or fold the river.Scenario 1) he calls with a qjo type of hand the flop/turn/river and we are betting the river with a range that he does not make any money calling/folding the river .We bet the flop 4$ into 5.5$ he calls, pot is now 13.5$, we bet 10$ on 13.5$ he calls pot is now 33.5$. The pot is now bigger on the river than the above example, where he c/r flop and checked turn. As for the river , we cannot overbet it in spots where we do not have enough bluffs.

you can't baptize top of one's range whatever seems rare. When we call flop and lead this turn it is perceived that we at least (I'm being generous here) have top pair good kicker and KK isn't the top of the range we have,it's as simple as that. That's because people very rarely lead terrible turns weak because of the fear of being blown away from the pot in the event of a bluff raise. If we check turn our range is in reality wider. You think hero is easy to play if we 3bet sets and 2 pair and call with top pair every time? Well great then we can flat every set as well (what i'd do tbh to let the std bvb spazz unfold, most important point perhaps in this discussion) and maybe raise top 2 and air+sortofdraw hands. All that's assuming balance is even relevant, we will probably never see this guy again and should play as exploitably as possible and forget about metagame. Overbet on this board would indeed not be good. Even if we can't have many bluffs if we call flop and bet river, if we had just 3 barelled the exact same shitty board there should be just a few bluffs in our range as well. In either case QJo is in a tough spot and doesn't get to see sd cheap with a fancy line