After flatting flop and turn, we have 0 fds in our range except maybe KThh, KJhh?
So there's not even really any point in theoretically shoving here to protect our bluff shoves.
I would expect him to shove his strongest value hands since fd missed and we can't have many missed draws,
and he folds or squeeze KQo pre.

oh, he's 36/20, so even if that is the correct thinking that all that prolly goes out the window...

Hands he could ch/c with here being 36/20 is prolly something like :
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 43.243% 43.24% 00.00% 16 0.00 { 33-22, AhTh, KQs, KhTh, Q9s+, JhTh, 54s, KQo, QTo+ }
Hand 1: 56.757% 56.76% 00.00% 21 0.00 { AsQs }

Some of those are probably a bit too generous and I think we are closer to flipping.
I'd check back unless I thought he'd shove his stronger hands and bluff-catch with with KQ etc.

thanks man

This is a pretty trivial 3bet pre, if we have any 3bet range at all. As for the river there is no way we can make any assumptions vs an unknown about how he constructs his c/c range so its better to not take that into consideration when we construct our shoving range which should definately include AQ with kq being borderline between checking and shoving.

On April 08 2013 18:50 barbieman wrote: After flatting flop and turn, we have 0 fds in our range except maybe KThh, KJhh?

why?

Why no 3bet pre? and why not shove here against a 36/21 with TPTK?

i jam here almost 100% of time, i think including 22-33, QT in villians hand range is ridicilous. If i had to guess I'd say he jams them 85%+ of the time, only hand im worried about is AA/KK at this point, i can think of a lot of draw combos that hanve 1 pair, as well as QJ/QK
"Some of those are probably a bit too generous and I think we are closer to flipping. " i'd say your analysis here is incredibly pesimistic. The type of game you are suggesting is nit vs nit, this is how weak passive players play against one another

i shoved he had 22. pretty big mistake for him not to lead river imo.

On April 08 2013 22:25 jaacsin wrote: Why no 3bet pre? and why not shove here against a 36/21 with TPTK?

21 hands isnt a huge same size, we are basically just discussing lines vs randoms here. I like jamming vs a random here

him showing up with 22 is very surprising to me, would not prevent me from value stacking myself again next orbit if the same situation came up

agree

villain put u on KJhh J9hh

river is super clear chk back. this is a 4 way pot. turn is potentially even a fold. if u had Ah in your hand id probly say fold turn.

On April 09 2013 02:13 MARSHALL28 wrote: river is super clear chk back. this is a 4 way pot. turn is potentially even a fold. if u had Ah in your hand id probly say fold turn.

Thanks I thought was an uber nit

i check back river,too.He bets big into 2 callers on turn.I expect him to have many draws here or a really good hand.
River is somehow a blank ,but 45 gets there.I expect him to bet and would call most rivers to catch missed draw bluffs.

against an unknown im value betting riv all day like 28$ or something and puke if he shoves

I'm with Tom here, can't beleive someone c/c a set
I'd bet 20 though (bet fold or call depends on raise), he can have lots of 1p+FD as Tom said.