exactly 1 combo of lower flush and I kinda doubt a tight reg would even raise it, seems like a fairly easy fold

1 combo? he completed sb, didn't call a raise

lol wut, easy call, you have position and a fish in the pot

ah sorry hungover, 3 combos actually

3d4d, 3d5d, 4d5d

I don't think im raising any of those in his spot though and since your read on him is "tight" we should assume he probably isnt either, so we have a bluff catcher.

What could SB be bluffing with here? I could see some hands like Ad2x play this way but with a reg barreling into 2 when the flush hit and the fish calling, I think I just see the river getting 3.5:1. Maybe JdX? I mean most good regs are completing SB ~75% of their hands or so in this spot he has a lot of stuff he could turn into a bluff, it just looks like such an unattractive spot to do so.

On August 19 2013 22:26 Smuft wrote: ah sorry hungover, 3 combos actually 3d4d, 3d5d, 4d5d I don't think im raising any of those in his spot though and since your read on him is "tight" we should assume he probably isnt either, so we have a bluff catcher. What could SB be bluffing with here? I could see some hands like Ad2x play this way but with a reg barreling into 2 when the flush hit and the fish calling, I think I just see the river getting 3.5:1. Maybe JdX? I mean most good regs are completing SB ~75% of their hands or so in this spot he has a lot of stuff he could turn into a bluff, it just looks like such an unattractive spot to do so.

83/84/85dd as well, but yea i dont raise any of those in his spot either

lol hangover is strong today

there are almost as many combos of AdTx than of bigger flushes that play that way, plus the amounts of bluffs, weirdly played KJ, sets, pot odds and a fish in between calling is definitelly Ev+

dont think you can say that KJ or sets are in his range, he completed SB vs a fish so that pretty much eliminates KJ and KK/JJ from his range and even if he did have any of them he wouldnt be overcalling pre with a fish in the pot on a wet board

Same thing with some of the AdX combos like A7+ so I think that gives him less AdX combos to bluff raise the turn with.

But on the other hand he's probably raising every combo of Axdd and many of his better Kxdd, Qxdd, Jxdd hands as well.

Also I kind of think regs are somewhat likely to lead their decent FD's on this board? Like if I complete Q5dd and this is the flop I think I'm leading a lot.

Hard to say here... will need to rethink when mind is completely sober

How fishy the fish is (will he stack off with Kx) is pretty important here too I think, if its just some semi donk who can fold hands then Im much more likely to fold then if he's a complete whale.

pretty obvious he just has a better flush no?

depends on how fishy the fish is but probably default to folding
calling to decide on river is sorta bad because if fish calls behind on turn, florider is just going to close his eyes and shove anyways hoping that we fold and fish calls. its not like our calling turn makes him put us on higher flushes and check fold river while still having the fish super dominated.

pretty easy turn call imo

Can't he have a set or two in his range as well or?
And I have a question, do we avoid it to be tricky if we bet really hard on the turn, closer to pot, since then if he has a lower fd, he will probably maybe just call? Or is this retarded thinking? (Was thinking like 46, 48 or something).

I would fold. I don't think he ever has a set here. He might do it with AdTx, but if fish folds to the ch/raise and we call he will probably still shove river most of the time and we have to fold.

everyone is different in these spots, but in his im raising AQdd AJdd ATdd QJdd QTdd JTdd T8dd and limping the rest of the diamond combos. so i could personally have A8dd A5dd A4dd A3dd Q8dd Q5dd Q4dd Q3dd J8dd J5dd J4dd J3dd T5dd T4dd T3dd and the aforementioned 6 combos we beat. some chance i raise Q8dd/J8dd but who cares, thats still roughly 15 combos we lose to of which i probably play 10ish like this in his spot, but no lower diamond combos i play this way. im probably raising AdTo pre sometimes calling sometimes. there just arent many hands i would play like this that arent a higher flush with the fish in there. think its a pretty trivial fold and wouldnt really wonder about it afterwards if it went fold fold.

then again im a plo player so my idea of folding/raising flushes is different from most NL players, so take that fwiw

He cant have a set or 2p(except a very unlikely K7s), AdTx there are only 3 combos of and even those are discounted by each street. I think most players are not gonna be bluffing here but bluffing with Jd or somehow Qd,Td is possible. Also I wouldnt dismiss him raising a lower flush, obv shitty spot but overall im leaning towards fold.

I probably fold this when I'm on my A game.

Call if i'm on my B-C game.

and shove if i'm tilted.

On August 20 2013 09:58 Daut wrote: everyone is different in these spots, but in his im raising AQdd AJdd ATdd QJdd QTdd JTdd T8dd and limping the rest of the diamond combos. so i could personally have A8dd A5dd A4dd A3dd Q8dd Q5dd Q4dd Q3dd J8dd J5dd J4dd J3dd T5dd T4dd T3dd and the aforementioned 6 combos we beat. some chance i raise Q8dd/J8dd but who cares, thats still roughly 15 combos we lose to of which i probably play 10ish like this in his spot, but no lower diamond combos i play this way. im probably raising AdTo pre sometimes calling sometimes. there just arent many hands i would play like this that arent a higher flush with the fish in there. think its a pretty trivial fold and wouldnt really wonder about it afterwards if it went fold fold. then again im a plo player so my idea of folding/raising flushes is different from most NL players, so take that fwiw

you complete the SB with a lot of shitty cards, J3s? wut.

On August 20 2013 12:04 EvilSky wrote: He cant have a set or 2p(except a very unlikely K7s), AdTx there are only 3 combos of and even those are discounted by each street. I think most players are not gonna be bluffing here but bluffing with Jd or somehow Qd,Td is possible. Also I wouldnt dismiss him raising a lower flush, obv shitty spot but overall im leaning towards fold.

Why is K7s very unlikely while daut lists even J3s as SB completing hands, what do you mean "discouted each street" ?

Yeah people are never bluffing with air since air doesnt call flop but might do it with QTdx and hands like that

Maybe its just a misconception of bluffing frecuency but im so used to just see "random" hands here that it warrants at least a call, I think you need a very solid read that this player is not capable of showing up here with 22 K7 AdT QTdx like ever for this to be a trivial fold.

On August 20 2013 14:58 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On August 20 2013 12:04 EvilSky wrote: He cant have a set or 2p(except a very unlikely K7s), AdTx there are only 3 combos of and even those are discounted by each street. I think most players are not gonna be bluffing here but bluffing with Jd or somehow Qd,Td is possible. Also I wouldnt dismiss him raising a lower flush, obv shitty spot but overall im leaning towards fold. Why is K7s very unlikely while daut lists even J3s as SB completing hands, what do you mean "discouted each street" ? Yeah people are never bluffing with air since air doesnt call flop but might do it with QTdx and hands like that

I mean unlikely because I dont expect K7s to raise the turn most of the time. By discount I mean its not 3 full combos of AdTx because he can possibly raise preflop,raise flop or flat turn once he flats the flop.

Cmon man its not 22 lol

On August 20 2013 15:47 EvilSky wrote: Show nested quote + On August 20 2013 14:58 Baalim wrote:   On August 20 2013 12:04 EvilSky wrote: He cant have a set or 2p(except a very unlikely K7s), AdTx there are only 3 combos of and even those are discounted by each street. I think most players are not gonna be bluffing here but bluffing with Jd or somehow Qd,Td is possible. Also I wouldnt dismiss him raising a lower flush, obv shitty spot but overall im leaning towards fold. Why is K7s very unlikely while daut lists even J3s as SB completing hands, what do you mean "discouted each street" ? Yeah people are never bluffing with air since air doesnt call flop but might do it with QTdx and hands like that I mean unlikely because I dont expect K7s to raise the turn most of the time. By discount I mean its not 3 full combos of AdTx because he can possibly raise preflop,raise flop or flat turn once he flats the flop.

same thing can be said about a lot of the other higher flush draw combos

First of all; villain is a very good player. I doubt anyone who is as good as him is really ever going to be playing any 2 pair or set combo like this. The only combos that makes any sense whatsoever are K7 and J7. Fairly sure he would've tried to get more money in the pot with any of the other combos that make 2 pair/sets before then, i.e. either pre with JJ/KK/KJ or on the flop with K2, 22, and even then, I don't think there's much of a chance he would be trying to chuck so much money in with J7 or K7 in a 3 way limped pot on the turn with a possible flush on board. At the same time I think he would lead the majority of his naked flush draws on the flop himself or perhaps check raise, as I don't see him check calling flop with like 5d4d for instance, so I don't think he gets to the turn with a TON of flushes, but I can certainly see him check/calling JdXd and I think that is by far his most likely hand. We do beat a bluff but I highly doubt he's ever bluffing with the fish in the pot who is just never going to fold 2p+. His range seems extremely narrow, but I just don't see any way that he finds a raise on the turn with less than our holding and I think you see JdXd an extremely high % of the time. If I was playing well I think I'd just fold the turn and feel quite pleased with myself, else I'd end up somehow getting it all in just cause I was frustrated with the session and then probably saying "I fucking knew it" when I lose or luckily winning against what I suspect is an extreme rarity

On August 20 2013 16:23 ToT)MidiaN( wrote: First of all; villain is a very good player. I doubt anyone who is as good as him is really ever going to be playing any 2 pair or set combo like this. The only combos that makes any sense whatsoever are K7 and J7. Fairly sure he would've tried to get more money in the pot with any of the other combos that make 2 pair/sets before then, i.e. either pre with JJ/KK/KJ or on the flop with K2, 22, and even then, I don't think there's much of a chance he would be trying to chuck so much money in with J7 or K7 in a 3 way limped pot on the turn with a possible flush on board. At the same time I think he would lead the majority of his naked flush draws on the flop himself or perhaps check raise, as I don't see him check calling flop with like 5d4d for instance, so I don't think he gets to the turn with a TON of flushes, but I can certainly see him check/calling JdXd and I think that is by far his most likely hand. We do beat a bluff but I highly doubt he's ever bluffing with the fish in the pot who is just never going to fold 2p+. His range seems extremely narrow, but I just don't see any way that he finds a raise on the turn with less than our holding and I think you see JdXd an extremely high % of the time. If I was playing well I think I'd just fold the turn and feel quite pleased with myself, else I'd end up somehow getting it all in just cause I was frustrated with the session and then probably saying "I fucking knew it" when I lose or luckily winning against what I suspect is an extreme rarity

this