what is it with people these days calling with trash suited conectors 3 bets

teach me how to beat micros

On January 31 2014 04:04 redrain0125 wrote: teach me how to beat micros

post how big in grreen numbers you are with 56hh , yeas sir you are not in 3b pots.

romxo, you don't play nl100. Therefore, you aren't allowed to have an opinion. God, get with it.

On January 31 2014 03:45 r0mx0 wrote: what is it with people these days calling with trash suited conectors 3 bets

lets create a nice range to call 3bets/4b with!

55+ ATs+ KTs+ QTs+ J9s+ T8s+ 98s AJo+ KQo! thats 12.37% of hands, good right?

Wrong. say you raise the button 50%, that means you are folding to a 3bet 75% of the time and they can profitably 3bet any 2 cards against you.

if bb is risking say 9 to win 4.5, you clearly need to defend > 1/3 your range to prevent him from freerolling. but 1/3 isnt enough because when you call and he has the worst hands in his range he can still hit flops or possibly win with a cbet on the right board textures. so you probably need to defend closer to 45% of your opening range to prevent this from happening.

lets make a new range that tries to open up while not playing crap suited connectors.

22+ A2s+ K9s+ Q9s+ J9s+ T8s+ 98s 87s ATo+ KTo+ QJo, 20.66% of hands. if this is your defending range you can probably only open about 46% of hands on the button before they can start 3betting a lot. so if we want to open the button wider that 45% (which most regs do), we want to defend more of those hands to 3bets.

my defending range is something around 22% of hands vs normal sized 3bets. if you arent defending that wide then you are likely getting exploited or being a nit on the button.

On January 31 2014 03:45 r0mx0 wrote: what is it with people these days calling with trash suited conectors 3 bets

more like what's with people 3Xing the button

3xing the button is considered bad these days? lol wtf

daut do you actually manually write them down inetsead of using stove or equilab? Ur such a nerd bro

nvm dled odds oracle it wont accept normal stove format wtf too much work ;p

On January 31 2014 13:35 bigredhoss wrote: 3xing the button is considered bad these days? lol wtf

nah just not standard anymore vs regs - dont think there was a mathematical proof, just keeping S/P ratio IP is better as is forcing people into more spots oop (or create autoprofit scenarios preflop if they are unwilling). rly rarely see 3X from anyone good 100bb deep

On January 31 2014 13:35 bigredhoss wrote: 3xing the button is considered bad these days? lol wtf

On January 31 2014 13:38 LemOn[5thF] wrote: Show nested quote + On January 31 2014 13:35 bigredhoss wrote: 3xing the button is considered bad these days? lol wtf rly rarely see 3X from anyone good 100bb deep

oh lemon, you're cute

Btw, anyone else remember when 4x pre was the norm? Man I miss those days

edit: f it, I'm bringing it back. Tuesdays and Thursdays = 4x pre. LP, Unite!

liek if we minraise 60% range 3b to 8bb in big blind we still need to defend same % of hands as when we 3x get 3b to 10 but now we have lower S/P ratio

autoprofit threshold is 33% defend. I guess if you want to add the buffer 45s seems in defend range if you like the hand over stuff like Q5s T6s K8o etc,

Think what r0mx0 is getting at that you have to play the bottom of that range like 45s ina +ev way postflop too or you are basically preventing autoprofit preflop but increasing the dude's overall EV if you do stuff like e.g. fold too much on flops which happens a lot with the bottom part of that range - and there's no point putting 45s in 4b range when we there's Ax Kx hands.

On January 31 2014 12:53 Daut wrote: Show nested quote + On January 31 2014 03:45 r0mx0 wrote: what is it with people these days calling with trash suited conectors 3 bets lets create a nice range to call 3bets/4b with! 55+ ATs+ KTs+ QTs+ J9s+ T8s+ 98s AJo+ KQo! thats 12.37% of hands, good right? Wrong. say you raise the button 50%, that means you are folding to a 3bet 75% of the time and they can profitably 3bet any 2 cards against you. if bb is risking say 9 to win 4.5, you clearly need to defend > 1/3 your range to prevent him from freerolling. but 1/3 isnt enough because when you call and he has the worst hands in his range he can still hit flops or possibly win with a cbet on the right board textures. so you probably need to defend closer to 45% of your opening range to prevent this from happening. lets make a new range that tries to open up while not playing crap suited connectors. 22+ A2s+ K9s+ Q9s+ J9s+ T8s+ 98s 87s ATo+ KTo+ QJo, 20.66% of hands. if this is your defending range you can probably only open about 46% of hands on the button before they can start 3betting a lot. so if we want to open the button wider that 45% (which most regs do), we want to defend more of those hands to 3bets. my defending range is something around 22% of hands vs normal sized 3bets. if you arent defending that wide then you are likely getting exploited or being a nit on the button.

How much is the average to open from BU at high stakes? I've heard anywhere from 50 to 70, even vs good player on blinds (I assume everyone above nl200 at least defends a wide range)

4betting in position as a bluff is a bad idea these days. people 3bet a wide linear range OOP and fold infrequently to 4bets. if they 3bet like 25% with some polarized hands they can still have like JTs QTs K9s or better and just call or 5bet a large % of the time they 3bet.

in tough games its gotten to the point where you basically cant open wider than the 45% GTO type range without giving something away at 100bb.

i like 2.5x button. defending ranges too wide vs minraise, prefer some fold equity but dont want people to be able to 3b huge and price you out.

so even if you were minraising you open 50% BU in aggro lineups where you aren't aware of any major leaks opponents have?

Yeah 2.5 is fine, the button mini-raie its on its quick way out, people are starting to call really light so you gotta increase the price, its also a bitch to play against a very wide range for hand reading when you are in the BU

On January 31 2014 13:32 LemOn[5thF] wrote: Show nested quote + On January 31 2014 03:45 r0mx0 wrote: what is it with people these days calling with trash suited conectors 3 bets more like what's with people 3Xing the button

people on NL100zoom dont like giving up blinds easily

On January 31 2014 16:47 redrain0125 wrote: Show nested quote + On January 31 2014 13:32 LemOn[5thF] wrote:   On January 31 2014 03:45 r0mx0 wrote: what is it with people these days calling with trash suited conectors 3 bets more like what's with people 3Xing the button people on NL100zoom dont like giving up blinds easily

Ye tbh in zoom I have no idea people even at NL10 go crazy when you minraise or 2.5x BU if it prevents them from 3b a ton then it's good. I dont play that thang tho

These are Janda's range btw BU vs 3Bet in his book:
they are mean he has some tad wider ones nee dto understand it

Call:
AA, TT-77, AQo-ATo, KQo-KTo, QJo, AQs-A7s,A5s-A2s, KQs-K9s, QJs-Q9s,JTs-J9s, T9s-T8s,98s-97s, 87s, 76s, 65s

4B:
KK-JJ, AKo,AKs, A6s, A4s-A2s, K8s-K4s,Q8s-Q7s

Sounds aight?
he also thinks raising BU 45% when minraising is close to optimal guess u iss right guys

On January 31 2014 14:42 GoTuNk wrote: Show nested quote + On January 31 2014 12:53 Daut wrote:   On January 31 2014 03:45 r0mx0 wrote: what is it with people these days calling with trash suited conectors 3 bets lets create a nice range to call 3bets/4b with! 55+ ATs+ KTs+ QTs+ J9s+ T8s+ 98s AJo+ KQo! thats 12.37% of hands, good right? Wrong. say you raise the button 50%, that means you are folding to a 3bet 75% of the time and they can profitably 3bet any 2 cards against you. if bb is risking say 9 to win 4.5, you clearly need to defend > 1/3 your range to prevent him from freerolling. but 1/3 isnt enough because when you call and he has the worst hands in his range he can still hit flops or possibly win with a cbet on the right board textures. so you probably need to defend closer to 45% of your opening range to prevent this from happening. lets make a new range that tries to open up while not playing crap suited connectors. 22+ A2s+ K9s+ Q9s+ J9s+ T8s+ 98s 87s ATo+ KTo+ QJo, 20.66% of hands. if this is your defending range you can probably only open about 46% of hands on the button before they can start 3betting a lot. so if we want to open the button wider that 45% (which most regs do), we want to defend more of those hands to 3bets. my defending range is something around 22% of hands vs normal sized 3bets. if you arent defending that wide then you are likely getting exploited or being a nit on the button. How much is the average to open from BU at high stakes? I've heard anywhere from 50 to 70, even vs good player on blinds (I assume everyone above nl200 at least defends a wide range)

wish i could tell you, play 95% PLO now and dont play high stakes. but i assume as it gets deeper it goes up towards 70. my standard was always about 52 in NL and is about 58 in PLO

60-70 steal is still the norm. Theres two ways players are playing against high steals which is defending wider and or 3betting 14-16% vs high BU steals.

Min raising wide and 2.5xing tighter both has its advantage

3xing the button is worst of all since you'll get three betted way too frequently and hand like 56s will be questionable to continue with low spr wherelse its almost a mandatory call vs 7x 3bet