this is fine as default line vs reg ye?
I'd cc most my range here very low cb range if any
river I have loads of stuff I can fold there so even tho its a bad bluff card unknown will have some bluff range with so much stuff wiffing and this should be high up in mine to call right?
doubt theres any 9 in his range besides some A9,I block that+dont block any draws

i prefer betting flop as default by far.. why c/c or c/r most of your range? that board is ugly turning fugly and you will stop getting action or get bluffed by c/cing
u got a pretty good runout here and still dont know what to do

Huh? hits his range so much more I cf this so much oO

u are hu vs a presumably wide btn minraiser.. no reason to think his range dominates your AT on T96cc.. personally i'm really happy about this spot vs almost everyone

no I mean range vs range

You're not thinking deep enough about how and why you continue barrelling if you're checking this a ton.

Think.

What hands does he continue with on this flop?

Now which of those are raising, and which of those are calling? Do you see where I'm going with this?

What hands are the raising with, and why are they almost forced to do so?

Because of the nature of the board, strong hands are generally forced to define themselves immediately, for fear that a 7, 8, or club comes. In the case of T9, they're also scared of a straight. 78 isn't exactly wanting to not charge JQ, KJ and KQ to see the turn. Unless they're slowplaying for some reason, 66, 99, TT, 9T, 78, the only monster hands they can have that can go either way, but with the intent to trap rather than slowplay is ATcc, or KTcc if it's in their range.

The thing that these all have in common is that they have an incentive to raise the pot now, not necessarily to build a pot in order to win a large one, but simply betting, and in this case raising, to get money before some what..

What hands are they calling with? with a straight, 17 cards are likely to kill your action, either by creating a 4straight or a flush, which would be drawing dead to. A flush doesn't want a 67 to hit a straight and have them take them off your flush draw on the turn. A set doesn't want to turn it'sh and into a drawing hand, or have 2 pair become counterfeited

Everything here has an enormous incentiive for money to go in NOW.

Now, which or what types of hajnds are they calling with?


JQ, KJ, KQ, JT-AT(some may raise AT if they over value yet), T8, 98, 97, 86, 76, 77, 88...Ac7x or Ac8x maybe? Some players might raise a lot of their combo draws here, but it's not great...you're going t ohave to triple barrel anything you miss...might like that more if we're deeper, but since we're looking at facing a bet currently, and after raising the bet, and betting strong on the turn, you're stack will be to small to make any reasl bet on the river.

So my point is basically, while a lot of decent players insist on playing comb o draws aggressively, but these boards kind of create the illusion of a combo draw unless you have a higher straight draw.to go with a flush draw. Reason being, if you're getting it in with sets, straights, and better flush draws, your pairs and gut shotss just don't do anything except make you shove more money in bad.

Anyway, sorry for the side tangent. The reason for it is to explain that I think the list is much wider than what i said above. They're call with a ton of hands.

So what happens when a situation is created where most, if not all, of they're strong and very strong hands have to raise, and then their range is made up almost entirely of weak top pair,weak pairs with gutshots, maybe a hand like T8s. But they don't have 2pair or more. In fact, we could likely narrow they're best possible hand to AcTc, followed by ATo, and you can have your entire range.

this means you can put a TOOOON of pressure on boards like this after you're not raised on the flop. I prefer to pick hands that have some kind of equity. Overcards, naked gut shots, highcards with 1 suit in their hand. Anything that gives me something else i can bet on other than the board changes. The combination of the two, picking hands with equity, if somethinga s small as a gutshot, and betting when the board brings good bluff cards, not only gives you more leniency on how certain you must be of your reads, but just makes your range stronger as a whole rather than extremely weighted towards garbage hands, Choose to bet a 56 because it can't win at showdown is terrible reason, choose to bet it because ot can't win at showdown, and can also hit a gutshot if a great reason, and agreat tool fdor narrowing down your bluffing range btw.





Anyway, what this wall of text means is the follow:

Just because a board hits many of their hands doesn't mean you shouldn't bet and attack it. When the board is such that slowplaying causes lots of problems, so strong hands have to define themselves and weak hands must play passively or turn themselves into bluffs.

You wouldn't believe the number of folds you get on the river after betting the flop and the turn, especially if you bet big the whole way. Just be mindful of changes that are good for them and don't get carried away. The whole point is to get them to fold their mediocre to bad pair hands, their missed draws, and so on. You might still occasionally get called by a decent to good top pair, but whatever, can't win em all. When they do call you down and what with always makes for a cool note.



ANYWAY, that's all, hopefully you learned something.


tl;dr

Fuckin read it. It'll doyou good and teach you that you need to dig deeper, get whys, whens and whats that you evidently aren't asking about currently.


Hopefully I didn't waste my time. Not that my personal time is a resource...time is just precious regardless.

On the other hand this is a shit spot vs a raise and yeah it's a 3 barrel board when I do bet, meaning I still check fold shitloads here and need some hands that can cc 3 on rags.

What you say does make sense from explo perspective though think both approaches are fine, yours probably better against bad exploitable players that will play their range the way you explained. In that case you can overbluff 3 streets a ton yeah.

Well, why do you even need a cc range on this board? Having a cc range doesn't make you more balanced imo.. it just puts you in tough spots for no reason. If you are checking you can still be check/raising so it's not like check=transparent fold. Srsly, maybe it's just playstyle but I can't see a reason to be ccing 3 streets instead of betting as I'm aggressive with pretty much everything I've got here. Depending on the opponent and gameflow I may check/call some stuff but it's based on that specific opponent not on the idea of balancing a check/call range for the sake of it.

Also, it's cool if you can play perfectly balanced and nobody can exploit you but there's no need for it at 25nl.. even Galfond will be playing more exploitably as it's more profitable vs low stakes dudes.

check call strat is bad on such a danger board.
I would go for the check raise here on the flop.
And listen to ggplz.
Most game theory strats arent worth it at 25NL.Just play abc,look for the fishes and sometimes make moves vs well known regs,that are decent enough to make laydowns.

agree with much of whats been said, check/call on the flop makes it really tough to play future streets oop with so many cards making our hand nearly unplayable.

as played... i think river call is fine? i dont think he expects you to have AT+ and everything missed. he might even be shoving AT or worse himself, though it's hard to say what he thinks of your range here

damn freak broke this hand so well in pieces that you should probably pay him :D

On August 31 2014 08:34 LemOn[5thF] wrote: On the other hand this is a shit spot vs a raise and yeah it's a 3 barrel board when I do bet, meaning I still check fold shitloads here and need some hands that can cc 3 on rags. What you say does make sense from explo perspective though think both approaches are fine, yours probably better against bad exploitable players that will play their range the way you explained. In that case you can overbluff 3 streets a ton yeah.

You do realize I'm saying you don't need to check fold that often? It's not "3 barrell when you do bet". It's "3 barrelling anybody who isn't stopping you"

And "bad exploitative" players don't play their range that way. It's just a perfectly reasonable way to play on boards like these. And because I know it's a perfectly reasonable way to play on these boards, I can take advantage of the fact that they'll call the turn too often and fold the river too much. Doesn't make them bad, just means people over value mediocre made hands that have outs.

What is bad exploitative play is check calling a board when there are 19 bad turn cards(club, 7, 8). Wait...25(J,Q). Wait....28(K)

So provided you can fade 28 cards, there aren't doesn't improve.

I don't have a check calling range here either, unless vs somebody who raises flops a lot.

I do, however, have a check raising range. For pretty much the same reasons I have a triple barrel range. They'll shove the same hands they raised when I cbet, and they'll call what they were calling with. And I get to pick up the money when they're stabbing at the pot too. But I only have a check raising range vs somebody I know will stab a lot, since that is giving me a specific reason to change my play.


I do NOT, however, take my best TP hand, and give them an opportunity to see a turn. A turn that has 28(!!) bad cards. In fact, you managed to fade 28 outs twice, and still don't know what to do. This isn't good. THIS is exploitative.



Just..bet the flop, yeesh. Or check fold really shitty boards. You'd be amazed at the kind of boards good players just don't fire at. Because they can't improve their hand, backdoor anything, they'll get floated too much, and they have a hard time representing anything on the turn.

Giving up on a hand isn't a weakness..sometimes it's just good judgment.