debating with a friend, I think the worst line here is to c/c vs unknown (stat-wise probably) reg, he says that the other guy could turn something into a bluff but most likely wouldn't call a shove

I shoved but I'm thinking that perhaps c/f is best, what do you guys think

you open shoved?

I like a shove. I think it takes quite a nitty dynamic for you to c/f this BTN vs BB.

I also agree that c/c seems like the worst option.

It would seem as though shove is standard and def +ev given the QK and AQ in his range. You only need to get called by worse 32% or so.

so shove > fold but could c/c > shove? not sure but im doubtful if he checks back some top pair hands etc. while calling them vs a shove

c/c is very optimistic. He does not have enough bluffs here. I think its between shove and c/f depending on the player and the dynamic. If the guy is a drooler then obv shove but I don't think someone decent will call you with Qx.

I can't see anything else we can do then bet/bet/bet. We get value from AQ, we can't fold. I don't think he is going to value bet worse, nor is he bluffing on the river to make ch/call an option here. Most people would have 4/bet QQ/JJ btn vs blind preflop.

Check expecting every queen besides a couple AdQx combos to check behind. Its just a spot where if he has 55 hes more often than not taking it to showdown. So we arent expecting unknown 50nl regs to turn hands into bluffs at a high enough frequency where we ever need to cc here.

if you don't think you can get 3 streets of value, chk turn and bet river if it chks through

On September 19 2014 13:11 k4ir0s wrote: if you don't think you can get 3 streets of value, chk turn and bet river if it chks through

I usually can get 3 streets, not sure if it's possible on this river though

Think it highly depends if he calls a shove w KQ here, cause if he doesn't you're crushed

3bet 2 barreling and then doing anything other than a shove for a 3/4 pot bet left is the worst you could do imo. Choose a better line if you don't think that would be profitable

shove > c/f > c/c

shoving is def +ev. Im finding it hard to believe its higher ev than cf tho. Esp with no diamond in our hand. Im sure its an easy crev spot, but havnt really gotten into that program yet.

shipping is the most +ev for many reasons.

On September 19 2014 18:38 Ryan Neilly wrote: shipping is the most +ev for many reasons.

Im willing to accept that.. can you state your reasons?

I highly doubt KQ will call a shove on that river...
And thats the problem.
You only beat AQ from the likely hands that call and even AQ might find the fold here and there.
I prefer check ,if villain then shoves i probably fold unless i got some reads/stats on the reg that tell me otherwise.
I once knew a reg at 100Nl that would regularly bet between 1$-10$ on such rivers

XF > shove > XC and it's not close

the only type of player shoving the river can be better than XF'ing against is one who raises all of his sets, all of his straights, and a bunch of his FDs before the river (and who also doesnt raise any of his Qx hands

shoving this river with KK without Kd is definitely overplay vs unknown

nice bluff if you open shove
nice spazz if you check call
decent play if you check fold

so much weird advice in this thread, geez

On September 20 2014 03:48 Smuft wrote: XF > shove > XC and it's not close the only type of player shoving the river can be better than XF'ing against is one who raises all of his sets, all of his straights, and a bunch of his FDs before the river (and who also doesnt raise any of his Qx hands

:@ im playing too much live

if we XF, whats in our range that we're check/not folding?

also what about betsmall/call or betsmall/fold

bet small fold is prolly the best line since it takes a very advanced player to rejam light over.

On September 19 2014 18:54 handbanana21 wrote: Show nested quote + On September 19 2014 18:38 Ryan Neilly wrote: shipping is the most +ev for many reasons. Im willing to accept that.. can you state your reasons?

that's not fair, you know he can't

classic neilly :D

On September 21 2014 04:15 dogmeat wrote: classic neilly :D

I dont know what type of limit you play but bet small / fold is a lot better than 80%+ of the advice that has been given here.