Assume a good player
literally 0 hands without sd value in my range - should be pretty clear to anyone who at least tries to put me on a range
how little should be my betsize with both my value hands and bottom of my range like 55 that I turn into a bluff?

wtf lemon.

raise flop. or 3b.

stop being a fucking rocket scientist when you're dealing with rats hugging cheese. I'm one of those. ffs.

get your shit together man

raise flop. bet/raise turn. shove river.

or slow play em, and get max value from complete shit. in which case, if that's your strategy for the night/day - 2 dollar will do. No, I'm not being facetious.

Or. We'll drink beer when I come out your way. f it.

It'll be on you ffs.

You're drunk devon? <3 haha

guy bets too much flop+turn, prefer to get dat money ;p

you think he was just trying to push you off a possible flush draw? i'd try to get value on this river

i just read your post kek
something like 2.5-3.25 would be my guess

$5

devon should be probably be more humble with his advice imo

On October 17 2014 07:20 jeffv8x_-_16 wrote: $5

Nice to see some nice evolution in 5 years....

Thank you

On October 17 2014 07:20 jeffv8x_-_16 wrote: $5

against fish yeah
but say I play vs you
whats your cc range when I bet that otr?

On October 17 2014 07:48 lebowski wrote: devon should be probably be more humble with his advice imo

I think if I was any more humble I'd be sucking camel dick for a living

--- Nuked ---

On October 17 2014 09:24 LemOn[5thF] wrote: Show nested quote + On October 17 2014 07:20 jeffv8x_-_16 wrote: $5 against fish yeah but say I play vs you whats your cc range when I bet that otr?

5$ and have him call off his set & Jx
you dont have any weak range that calls to target with a smaller vbet on the river => there is no reason not to bet big

^

Wow. Shut up Devon. Soberer me says -

I fold pre tbh. UTG vs aj in mp doesn't play very well imo. Money on fire. Then again, I follow the nit philosophy.

flop? Gin. Any way you play it is ok, unless you fold really. I personally like to raise but it's meh. A lot of regs love to SNAP off bets on river vs missed flush draws (sup), so I wouldn't be overly surprised if he showed up with qq/kk. Your hand is pretty face up (in the sense you have top and/or draw - gotta like the thinking regs who slowplay sets on drawy flops) so I doubt you'll get much value.

Realistically, it's not like you have any fold equity vs anything that beats you - any good reg will stack off w/ qq+ on double suited boards/non straightening (vs other regs) at this limit imo, so yeah.

Yeah. You got snap called by qq didn't you.

Folding pre is where u burn money :D
unless ofc there are sqzing monkeys behind, in which case i either 3bet or fold i guess
if utg folds like 50< to 3bet i value 3bet him

three dollars and sixty cents bob

stop assuming villain is competent, most of the guys don't give a fuck and even if they did, they don't have the brains to produce a coherent gameplan

In other words.. stop assuming you are some range pro balanced unexploitable savant expert. You are overestimating your own and other players skills for reasons only Loco could decypher. Your gameplan should be as simple as "make good hand by river, bet a fucking lot of money. Also following TTs ABC advice will get you miles further than any work you think you are doing or assimilating from people who do it for you in some poker-universe where they rip off the penny grinders in exchange for shitty advice.

Seeing this flop produces a Pavlov reflex in me where i see dollar signs, hear the coins rolling from a slot machine onto the tin tray and all the cheeseburgers 16 dollars can buy. You don't have fuck all for a range if you never play anything fast. And doing the exact opposite, which was called fancy play syndrome, is so year 2008. What a joke.

It is not rocket sciente, people will call your overbet allin with fuck all because why not, no need to overcomplicate stuff.

There, that's my 2cents.

lol

On October 17 2014 04:50 LemOn[5thF] wrote: Assume a good player

let's stop right there and just assume he's bad.

let's get the monies in asap. Villain is not betting enough for us here. flatting flop is fine. but i wouldn't be too concerned with balance and would be raising most turns including that one. As played it isn't horrible but baddies will never fold Jx here but on heart rivers they may. If we are behind we have the nut draw to keep us in the race. Raise flop and or turn.

Don't they sell bigger shovels where you live? I mean wtf, you are using a toothpick to push pennies when you should be worrying about buying a bigger wheelbarrow cause of raking in all the money they are throwing at you. This isn't poker, this is basic fckn gardening.

http://www.liquidpoker.net/h/1043876 just posting cause well, this is it right here. shit like this doesn't get posted enough.

I never assumed anyone was good ever in all my online poker career

balancing ranges @ nl16, poker confirmed dead

hand is played fine unless you have a reason to think villain stacks off with most top pair/ worse draws vs a raise
these things happen much more often in HU matches or were more the norm in the past, not in today's 6/9 max nitfests (to my experience)

idk about nl 0.16 but I don't expect people to be like that in the games I play, I see more often people who are awful in the sense of 3 barelling any 2 cards (or worse draws) though , just because they look at the board and say to themselves "if he had something good he'd probably raise" but who also totally abort their aggressiveness if they face a raise.

I assume that at some point as the stakes drop there are people who 3 barel QJ for value or never fold it/any draw vs aggression, but vs people with half a brain if you face a big river bet you're bluff catching your tptk (for a controlled pot size though) and if they get it in vs a raise you are not in a terrible shape (on the flop at least) but you're mostly flipping or worse (there's not a lot of combo draws which is best case scenario for us). I mean if there are a lot of people who will 3 barel bluff worse draws or overvalue their non clean outs, why would you ever choose to raise? So ok I guess you empirically have to decide what are the most common mistakes people in your player pool do to know what's best as a course of action

btw that hand cariadon posted is a 3bet pot river bluffcatch, not so relevant to this hand.
People do these things in higher games too, it's because 3bet pots are played very differently than single raised ones and even regs commonly disregard stack sizes in their fight to win the pot because they're not used to playing deep

even if the avg nl 0.16 player is terrible enough for raising at any point to be higher ev, I think lemon's question is still theoretically sound and I can't think of a reason it deserves what seems to be old style "bro you're not aggro enough" responses

assuming villian is a average bad breakeven fake tag reg, we can bet 2/3 pot like every other bad tag breakeven bad reg

On October 17 2014 18:02 lebowski wrote: hand is played fine unless you have a reason to think villain stacks off with most top pair/ worse draws vs a raise these things happen much more often in HU matches or were more the norm in the past, not in today's 6/9 max nitfests (to my experience) idk about nl 0.16 but I don't expect people to be like that in the games I play, I see more often people who are awful in the sense of 3 barelling any 2 cards (or worse draws) though , just because they look at the board and say to themselves "if he had something good he'd probably raise" but who also totally abort their aggressiveness if they face a raise. I assume that at some point as the stakes drop there are people who 3 barel QJ for value or never fold it/any draw vs aggression, but vs people with half a brain if you face a big river bet you're bluff catching your tptk (for a controlled pot size though) and if they get it in vs a raise you are not in a terrible shape (on the flop at least) but you're mostly flipping or worse (there's not a lot of combo draws which is best case scenario for us). I mean if there are a lot of people who will 3 barel bluff worse draws or overvalue their non clean outs, why would you ever choose to raise? So ok I guess you empirically have to decide what are the most common mistakes people in your player pool do to know what's best as a course of action btw that hand cariadon posted is a 3bet pot river bluffcatch, not so relevant to this hand. People do these things in higher games too, it's because 3bet pots are played very differently than single raised ones and even regs commonly disregard stack sizes in their fight to win the pot because they're not used to playing deep even if the avg nl 0.16 player is terrible enough for raising at any point to be higher ev, I think lemon's question is still theoretically sound and I can't think of a reason it deserves what seems to be old style "bro you're not aggro enough" responses

Troll of the week award. Thanks for your insight.

there are different kinds of bad and different kinds of good imo

a lot of the time, a bad play can be a good play in a different context (but not all of the time )

On October 17 2014 18:54 cariadon wrote: Show nested quote + On October 17 2014 18:02 lebowski wrote: hand is played fine unless you have a reason to think villain stacks off with most top pair/ worse draws vs a raise these things happen much more often in HU matches or were more the norm in the past, not in today's 6/9 max nitfests (to my experience) idk about nl 0.16 but I don't expect people to be like that in the games I play, I see more often people who are awful in the sense of 3 barelling any 2 cards (or worse draws) though , just because they look at the board and say to themselves "if he had something good he'd probably raise" but who also totally abort their aggressiveness if they face a raise. I assume that at some point as the stakes drop there are people who 3 barel QJ for value or never fold it/any draw vs aggression, but vs people with half a brain if you face a big river bet you're bluff catching your tptk (for a controlled pot size though) and if they get it in vs a raise you are not in a terrible shape (on the flop at least) but you're mostly flipping or worse (there's not a lot of combo draws which is best case scenario for us). I mean if there are a lot of people who will 3 barel bluff worse draws or overvalue their non clean outs, why would you ever choose to raise? So ok I guess you empirically have to decide what are the most common mistakes people in your player pool do to know what's best as a course of action btw that hand cariadon posted is a 3bet pot river bluffcatch, not so relevant to this hand. People do these things in higher games too, it's because 3bet pots are played very differently than single raised ones and even regs commonly disregard stack sizes in their fight to win the pot because they're not used to playing deep even if the avg nl 0.16 player is terrible enough for raising at any point to be higher ev, I think lemon's question is still theoretically sound and I can't think of a reason it deserves what seems to be old style "bro you're not aggro enough" responses Troll of the week award. Thanks for your insight.

thanks for yours
real men raise duh

try, just for once try to answer a post like you don't have a bad case of hemorrhoids

Your analysis was bloody shit.

You don't grasp the Lem0n syndrome. He constantly overcomplicates things, worrying about his shitty balance with "bottom of his range like 55"... what the fuck. He isn't even asking anything, he posts hand because he is genuinely lost in every single hand he plays. He can't distinguish between good advice and bad for years, so it is fair to assume he won't be getting it any time soon. The longer it goes on, the worse the condition becomes. I predict no 100nl for the next 2 years. The pattern with which he fails is too strong and consistent. I truly, honestly wish him well but cmon... is this reasonable? A reality check is in order.

Just because you took 2 minutes of your time to write 5 paragraphs of randomly arranged words doesn't mean you deserve praise. What you wrote was garbage by anyones low standards. You didn't even fucking say anything, just ramblings of a confused person. Your assumptions are beyond ridiculous. Piss off, you don't have anything to contribute.

And for anyone lowstakes gurus reading it is worthless to give advice after pooruser and TalentedTom have laid down the law. It should be taken as such. Throughout all the years they have been giving really solid advice that should be taken as gospel for anyone playing midstakes or lower.

On October 18 2014 05:33 cariadon wrote: Your analysis was bloody shit. You don't grasp the Lem0n syndrome. He constantly overcomplicates things, worrying about his shitty balance with "bottom of his range like 55"... what the fuck. He isn't even asking anything, he posts hand because he is genuinely lost in every single hand he plays. He can't distinguish between good advice and bad for years, so it is fair to assume he won't be getting it any time soon. The longer it goes on, the worse the condition becomes. I predict no 100nl for the next 2 years. The pattern with which he fails is too strong and consistent. I truly, honestly wish him well but cmon... is this reasonable? A reality check is in order. Just because you took 2 minutes of your time to write 5 paragraphs of randomly arranged words doesn't mean you deserve praise. What you wrote was garbage by anyones low standards. You didn't even fucking say anything, just ramblings of a confused person. Your assumptions are beyond ridiculous. Piss off, you don't have anything to contribute. And for anyone lowstakes gurus reading it is worthless to give advice after pooruser and TalentedTom have laid down the law. It should be taken as such. Throughout all the years they have been giving really solid advice that should be taken as gospel for anyone playing midstakes or lower.

just because you didn't take time to read what I wrote it doesn't mean it wasn't coherent. What assumptions are beyond ridiculous?
Which part is garbage? The only one rambling here is you, I'm sorry about that.
It's probably the way you've learned to think: if TT or PoorUser or whoever you knew back in the day in lp told you that the right thing to do here is to slap yourself with a tampon you'd do it, you believe in good players' authority and not in arguments or reason.

I didn't write these things to deserve praise like you say, I wrote them because I disagreed with what you and Yomer said and wanted to form some sort of argument (no personal attacks or whatever)
Obviously you think someone elected you for asshole advisor though. Join a discussion with decency, especially if what you have to say has a high chance of being bs.
You go ahead and believe in gospels (as you yourself put it lol), but the so called "preachers" you refer to (not blaming them obv) don't even say raise at any point in this hand afaik
Which makes you seem more of an idiot.


eg I loved how you refer to poker video making coaches as frauds who are taking advantage of penny grinders instead of converting anyone to your gospel for instant success. I'm sure you and your randomly chosen idols are all better players than every coach in the field. Why don't you start coaching yourself?

Everyone is a goddamn riddler and poker theory expert. Ironical that that isn't getting many people anywhere. How about you connect the dots yourself?
Good to see you are really proud of your poker analysis and theory demonstration. Godspeed.