cool shot :/

when i take a shot especially at zoom i would maybe adjust and play flippy hands a little slower

could consider flatting the 3bet, SB vs MP will usually be pretty strong

if we have 3bet stats on him it would be very useful. some guys will have a 3bet range of literally {QQ, KK, AA, AK} or even tighter

I mean he has 95bb unknown on a sunday afternoon

if he's unknown to you you're unknown to him too

yeah i saw the stack, and obv our play is fine/standard vs unknowns

just sayin that there are players who have insanely tight ranges here. like guys who literally have only AA/KK in their 3bet range

idk why you'd think fishy players have a wider 3betting range sb vs ep, I mostly see regs 3bet loosely from such positions
on the rare occasion a fish 3bets a worse hand they usually call the 4bet trying to hit

On November 09 2014 14:53 fira wrote: yeah i saw the stack, and obv our play is fine/standard vs unknowns just sayin that there are players who have insanely tight ranges here. like guys who literally have only AA/KK in their 3bet range

def not std nor fine

On November 09 2014 16:25 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On November 09 2014 14:53 fira wrote: yeah i saw the stack, and obv our play is fine/standard vs unknowns just sayin that there are players who have insanely tight ranges here. like guys who literally have only AA/KK in their 3bet range def not std nor fine

elaborate?

why would i ever ever ever want to get it in and hope for a flip vs a fish? besides 4b/calling w/ AKo isnt that great, might be even -ev deppending on sizings

Are you always flatting AK vs 3bets ip here then..?

the only time this can be a mistake is if we know villain is a sick nit who never 3bet bluffs and never has worse than a flip for value

basically the type of guy whose 3bet range is QQ+, AK and nothing else

not a lot of them but when u spot them u can exploit them by never 4betting and folding a shit ton of covered hands

assume hes not a nit and has polarized 3betting range, why would i want to 4b?

^ its a good point actually, being IP allows us to call pretty profitably vs a polarized range

i still don't think 4betting for value/protection is a mistake though

if we're not 4betting this then we're not 4betting much at all, only KK+ and ATo with the ace of spades

Standard, variance shouldn't persuade us into making lesser EV plays.

YET, we should make lower variance plays if we want to lower our risk of ruin, and in this spot our risk of ruining our shot taking is huge, so...

I think in this specific spot perhaps playing this hand more passively would net more EV in the long run simply because it keeps us in these bigger juicy games where our winrate might be near double our current winrate at lower stakes

On November 09 2014 21:02 goose58 wrote: Standard, variance shouldn't persuade us into making lesser EV plays.

not sure if trolling or blatant incompetence here

4b/calling has ~0 ev vs balanced 3betting range QQ+/AK+bluffs
on the other hands 4b/calling vs range of QQ+,AK only has ev -9.6bbs

assuming villain is balanced or overbluffing is fckin retarded

why are we assuming villain only 3bets QQ+/AK...?

No reads and after we 4bet its an auto call

And I promise you 4betting with AK in a vacuum at these stakes vs an unknown is +EV

Once we 4bet and he shoves, we only need 37% equity to call versus a range of AK/QQ+ and we have 39%, so clearly it's +EV to call in that situation

Of course we don't know his range, lemon didn't even post stats, so I treat this as an unknown

I happily get AK in all day every day, as you should if you have an aggro 3bet/4bet game and your opponent isn't a nit

promises dont make money, i want a proof... are you suggesting ppl are overbluffing this spot then? great that you explationed to me how pod odds work, but its irrelevant coz initial 4b is -ev to begin with

On November 09 2014 22:36 Trav94 wrote: why are we assuming villain only 3bets QQ+/AK...?

im just showing that ev of this play is between 0 and -9.6 (-10.6 vs fullstack)

On November 10 2014 00:08 goose58 wrote: I happily get AK in all day every day, as you should if you have an aggro 3bet/4bet game and your opponent isn't a nit

i m not a fan of making lesser ev plays to make the hand easier to play, thx for suggestion thou, do you coach?

Well I can't speak for you or other players but over my last 65k hands, filtering for AK, I'm winning when I 4bet and losing when I call a 3bet, it's a very small sample though and probably not that relevant.

answer my question, do you think 34 combos of AK/QQ+ makes up for at most 48.6% of their 3betting range (not assuming blocking effects)?

I never thought it would come down to this, but
dogmeat for president

Well everyones 3betting range is different, so I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised to see far weaker hands especially at micro stakes against an unknown.

i agree with dogmeat but i will discredit him by typing my own probably bullshit which might make him look as dumb as me by proxy

AKo is not AA you ruin the playability by calling off a stack in position after 4betting an unknown in the small blind with this shady reasoning:

On November 10 2014 00:08 goose58 wrote: No reads and after we 4bet its an auto call And I promise you 4betting with AK in a vacuum at these stakes vs an unknown is +EV Once we 4bet and he shoves, we only need 37% equity to call versus a range of AK/QQ+ and we have 39%, so clearly it's +EV to call in that situation

your rounding is misleading we would need 37.73% and we have 38.82% is it really worth it to put yourself in a bad spot where you are CALLING off a stack vs a range that includes no hands that you're ahead of over 1% of equity while taking a shot at zoom vs an unknown who 3bet your button from the SB

if lemon had 3bet to $9.90 instead of $11 and he needed 38.93% would you recommend folding then? because i don't think your fundamental reason for calling is a 1% margin pre that probably nobody in this thread would figure out while they're actually in a hand i think you just like flipping ("all day every day"

how about this scenario, lemon opens 98s from the button, unknown in small blind 3bets, lemon 4bets to $11 balance bluff etc. resteal whatever buzzword, SB shoves, God tells you he has AKs so you call with 37% equity what's wrong with this picture?

^ why would we 4bet with 98s? much rather take a blocker hand like AXo

if God told you he had AKs, you'd have to call ;p

but otherwise he obv has overpairs and shit

On November 10 2014 06:35 fira wrote: ^ why would we 4bet with 98s? much rather take a blocker hand like AXo if God told you he had AKs, you'd have to call ;p but otherwise he obv has overpairs and shit

keep in mind having AX also blocks some of his bluffing hands -___________________-

On November 10 2014 06:49 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On November 10 2014 06:35 fira wrote: ^ why would we 4bet with 98s? much rather take a blocker hand like AXo if God told you he had AKs, you'd have to call ;p but otherwise he obv has overpairs and shit keep in mind having AX also blocks some of his bluffing hands -___________________-

would depend on the player. personally i don't 3betbluff AXs or any kind of weak AXo, prefer the K2s-K8s or low gapped suited connectors.

On November 10 2014 05:53 goose58 wrote: Well everyones 3betting range is different, so I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised to see far weaker hands especially at micro stakes against an unknown.

let me rephrase, do you think his value 3betting range makes up for at most 48.6% of their 3betting range (not assuming blocking effects)?
even if you are right and hes indeed overbluffing this spot, its still such a fundamental mistake to 4b vs polarized range. in reality you are probably making huge -ev play vs majority of plrs, especially vs random 95bb stack @ zoom

On November 10 2014 06:53 fira wrote: Show nested quote + On November 10 2014 06:49 dogmeat wrote:   On November 10 2014 06:35 fira wrote: ^ why would we 4bet with 98s? much rather take a blocker hand like AXo if God told you he had AKs, you'd have to call ;p but otherwise he obv has overpairs and shit keep in mind having AX also blocks some of his bluffing hands -___________________- would depend on the player. personally i don't 3betbluff AXs or any kind of weak AXo, prefer the K2s-K8s or low gapped suited connectors.

so you just fold A5s? lol

no i call AXs. lose too much when i get 4bet and have to fold.

with A5o i'd prob just fold vs unknowns

well, A2o-A5o are prob ok for 3bet bluffs, depends on opponent

lawl

On November 10 2014 02:52 dogmeat wrote: i m not a fan of making lesser ev plays to make the hand easier to play, thx for suggestion thou, do you coach?

this so much. people to often choose the easier route to avoid being put in a challenging spot.. where they'll actually play some poker, and learn - instead of just having 3betting/4bet wars.

On November 10 2014 06:55 fira wrote: no i call AXs. lose too much when i get 4bet and have to fold. with A5o i'd prob just fold vs unknowns well, A2o-A5o are prob ok for 3bet bluffs, depends on opponent

i think calling is bad vs mp, but not as bad as w/ 56s

On November 10 2014 07:38 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On November 10 2014 06:55 fira wrote: no i call AXs. lose too much when i get 4bet and have to fold. with A5o i'd prob just fold vs unknowns well, A2o-A5o are prob ok for 3bet bluffs, depends on opponent i think calling is bad vs mp, but not as bad as w/ 56s

ha- ha

i wouldn't call with 65s vs MP unless i was getting an excellent price, like in that other hand

calling A5s might be bad vs MP, but vs BT my standard is to call. too strong to 3betbluff, too weak to 3betvalue

btn is completely different thou.. i wouldnt argue about 4betting AK otb

^isn't it much better to call especially on btn?

because you'll be facing KQ AQ so often

Ran a couple of very quick CREV sims

I gave SB a polarised 3betting range consisting of AKo, AKs, QQ+ (34 combos) which will be 5bet jamming and 65s-KQs (32 combos) as bluffs which will be folding to the 4bet. In this case SB has slightly more value than bluffs, which may or may not be realistic as I don't really know what normal ranges are in these spots and sometimes I see regulars showing up with weird shit like 97s or K6s even in these positions from time to time, but it seems like a reasonable 3betting range to me anyway

Fucked up numbers first time around, posted numbers for 4bet/Call, 4bet/Fold and Flatting the 3bet in my post below.

On November 10 2014 08:03 k4ir0s wrote: ^isn't it much better to call especially on btn? because you'll be facing KQ AQ so often

its an option, but AQ/KQ are at least calling a 4bet, AQ ships x% of time and you get 5b bluffed a lot... some w/ 18% 3b has to be defending vs 4bets ~9% time, i m lazy and just shove some pps and A2-5s

On November 10 2014 08:51 ToT)MidiaN( wrote: Ran a couple of very quick CREV sims I gave SB a polarised 3betting range consisting of AKo, AKs, QQ+ (34 combos) which will be 5bet jamming and 65s-KQs (32 combos) as bluffs which will be folding to the 4bet. In this case SB has slightly more value than bluffs, which may or may not be realistic as I don't really know what normal ranges are in these spots and sometimes I see regulars showing up with weird shit like 97s or K6s even in these positions from time to time, but it seems like a reasonable 3betting range to me anyway In any case, when we 4bet the SB is jamming 40.4% of the time due to card removal (He has AA, AK, KK less often cause we hold an Ace and a King) despite having a range which is constructed to be slightly value heavy. According to the sims I ran I got these values: 4bet/Calling shows an EV of -$1.46 4bet/Folding shows an EV of -$1.16 The EV of calling depends upon how much of your equity you're going to realise but if you set your equity realisation to 100% you show an EV of +$0.26 You'd have to be realising <2/3rds of your equity for calling to be worse than 4bet/Calling and <73% for calling to be worse than 4bet/folding. You actually need to realise >96% of your equity for calling to be better than straight up folding to the 3bet. Take of that what you will but I think it's reasonably safe to say that 4bet/Calling in these positions vs sane opponents is going to be rather poor

you could slip 3more combos into 3betting range and still remain balanced, whitch results in slighly better ev for 4b/calling
e: sry, only read the 1st sentence as usual -_-

Looks like I fucked up the tree anyway lol, knew those numbers seemed ridiculous to be losing 2bb/hand on a 4bet/fold when he's folding to the 4bet ~60% lol. I was reading the values from the wrong part of the tree!
4bet/Call = +$0.038
4bet/Fold = +$0.34
Call = +$1.76 @ 100% equity realisation
Call = +$0.07 @ 68% equity realisation (Even at this low realisation is still better than 4bet/Calling)
Call = +$0.34 @ 73% equity realisation (=4bet/Fold at this realisation, so need to retain >73% equity for call to be better than 4bet/fold vs the 3bet ranges I outlined in previous post, which are slightly value heavy to be fair)

All options are at least better than folding to the 3bet now, which makes more sense lol

I keep forgetting this is zoom and people say these games are nittier in general.

Can someone explain to me how we realize 100% equity when we just call preflop, and have to fold postflop some %?

I'm curious what's the difference in your guys winrates with 4betting AK versus calling a 3bet

Thanks for the posts guys, I agree that 4bet/getting it in versus someone with a 5% 3bet range is a mistake, my assumptions were more inline with my games where i regularly see 8-15% 3bet ranges in non-zoom games, especially from players in the blinds

I would not be surprised if AK realized >100% of it's equity in this spot since the 3b'er will almost always overbluff A/K high boards

Also for every time you get coolered by AA on Kxx, you will "cooler" AQ/AJs, Axs, KQs etc. type hands much more often for stacks or at least 2 streets of value

On November 10 2014 08:57 dogmeat wrote: Show nested quote + On November 10 2014 08:03 k4ir0s wrote: ^isn't it much better to call especially on btn? because you'll be facing KQ AQ so often its an option, but AQ/KQ are at least calling a 4bet, AQ ships x% of time and you get 5b bluffed a lot... some w/ 18% 3b has to be defending vs 4bets ~9% time, i m lazy and just shove some pps and A2-5s

Well it's still in our 9% defending range if we flat it. I'm wondering how much % of that 9% should be calling, and how much should be 4betting?

because it's really easy to create a 9% defending range if we include all our flatting hands

you open otb, he 3bets 18% from sb, you 4bet, he has to call/shove 9% of time, deppending on sizings, TT+/AK = 3.5%, then it gets tricky