It's fine you stack AK here everytime

standard or..,? seems like AK would fold the turn and then im getting it in bad

On November 30 2014 22:20 K40Cheddar wrote: It's fine you stack AK here everytime

thats assuming AK doesnt fold at some point..a cold 4bet in these positions looks like either AA or KK, maybe QQ or AK but less likely. That means anything thats value betting on the K flop beats AK, so why call with AK, much less stack off with it?

On November 30 2014 22:32 DragOn_ wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2014 22:20 K40Cheddar wrote: It's fine you stack AK here everytime anything thats value betting on the K flop beats AK, so why call with AK, much less stack off with it?

bluffs

would you play as villian did in that spot if you had AK?

On November 30 2014 22:58 DragOn_ wrote: would you play as villian did in that spot if you had AK?

If I had AK I would call flop fold turn, or even fold flop (much less likely), assuming your 4bet range is narrow?

On November 30 2014 23:04 lhr0909 wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2014 22:58 DragOn_ wrote: would you play as villian did in that spot if you had AK? If I had AK I would call flop fold turn, or even fold flop (much less likely), assuming your 4bet range is narrow?

Folding AK on that board on turn in a 4bet pot without some sort of read seems bad..? Maybe I'm wrong

I think calling preflop with AK in that situation is bad, I would either shove or fold depending on villian (me), mostly fold. Being out of position against a superior range when you need to hit the flop to have a hand seems really bad to me. Which is why im thinking that a decent opponent wouldnt do it, and im up against either KK or QQ, and only KK after the turn in which case I shouldnt shove

Yea, I think folding or shoving pre readless is fine. Flatting the cold 4bet oop doesn't seem so great. But, just saying if you do call pre, and hit the flop, you kind of have to go with it

If for some reason I decided to flat pre, I would call the flop and fold the turn which still makes shoving AA bad imo. I cant always assume my opponents are going to be calling stations

i love tiny bets on turn, sure they are polarizing but they keep his entire range in and then the spr is bloated so he has to call allin

like 35% on turn

I dont play holdem but is there really a serious discussion going on about whether we should cf the turn with aa in a 4b pot at nl10?

this is completely fine/standard even up to 200bb deep. folding would be so unbelievably bad.

On December 01 2014 02:37 TianYuan wrote: I dont play holdem but is there really a serious discussion going on about whether we should cf the turn with aa in a 4b pot at nl10?

Actually vs some fullring nits it is questionable if you have the image of a huge fullring nit yourself

On December 01 2014 02:47 YoMeR wrote: this is completely fine/standard even up to 200bb deep. folding would be so unbelievably bad.

so you think regs regularly will flat a cold 4bet vs UTG+2 OOP and call off 200bb with a bluffcatcher?

I can't believe this thread has 17 replies with a semi serious discussion about this hand O_O

here is why folding is bad.

Seat 8: Hero ($10.49 in chips)

irarai: raises $0.20 to $0.30
frankson88: raises $0.60 to $0.90
Hero: raises $1.20 to $2.10

. after this point pretty much any board besides the bottom 5% of boards (something like JT9 all hearts) is unfoldable. Even on those horrible boards it'll be super close as well.

This hand just plays itself and only discussion here should be bet sizing and which streets to try and get it in vs this particular opponents. Not "should I be folding AA after investing ~22% of your stack pf...people underestimate how huge this is.

being results oriented and second guessing yourself is not going to help you win at poker.

I would suggest that this is in the bottom 5% of boards, and I would rather get it in on JT9 all hearts than KT6 because it hits his defending range to a cold 4bet in the face. You think its more likely villian would flat a cold 4bet with JJ/TT/99 and suited connectors than KK? Thats making the assumption that he would even 3bet those against EP in the first place, which I think is going to be false almost all the time, whereas with KK its almost always true.

this is why I think I misplayed the hand:

a 3bet in fullring vs any EP is usually QQ+, AK in my experience from NL10/NL25, and weighted more towards AA/KK than QQ/AK because those are often flatted instead. So a 4bet would have to be stronger than that range in order to be profitable, meaning only AA and KK. A cold 4bet represents a range thats stronger than a normal 4bet, so that means AA and KK again, weighted towards AA. Cold 4betting vs EP in fullring looks like the nuts, so any hand that would continue against it has to be similarly nutty. I have AA, so the hand im up against most of the time is KK. Given that a K flopped, im probably beaten and should fold.

However, if all of the above were taken for granted, no one would ever continue against cold 4bets in those positions unless both players had AA. That would mean that anybody could cold 4bet bluff profitably with ATC, so players must defend with more than just AA in order to not get exploited. But most players at the microstakes will not ever cold 4bet bluff because they are used to playing against fish who will call too much, and regs who will also call too much. So if I have the same assumption of villian being a calling station, I would definitely stack off in that situation with AA.

But what if im playing against a "good" reg who isnt a calling station? He assumes that my cold 4bet is at least QQ+, AK and therefore must respond with a stronger range, AA or KK. If I make the assumption that he makes that assumption, I have AA so im facing 1 combo of AA and 6 combos of KK. When the K flops, I only have 22% equity and should fold. Or, he could assume that Im only cold 4betting AA/KK and just fold everything else. He didnt though, so im assuming hes assuming he thinks my range is a bit wider. But for him to respond with AK and stack off with it, he must think my cold 4betting range includes AQ at the very least, and probably more like AJ+/KQ, in order for me to be shoving less than AK against him and make it profitable for him to call down AK against me. That dynamic doesnt exist anywhere at NL10 for a cold 4bet against UTG+2 except against maniac aggrofish, so in order for me to shove AA I have to assume my opponent will think im bluffing, or is just an unthinking calling station.

Maybe im overestimating villians at NL10, but would this be standard at say NL100?

VERY STANDARD UNLESS YOU ARE AN OVERTHINKING NIT THAT LOSES MONEY.

4b jam pre is soo good, 21bb pre = i have AA u stu.id bas..rd!

On December 01 2014 17:16 Nitewin wrote: VERY STANDARD UNLESS YOU ARE AN OVERTHINKING NIT THAT LOSES MONEY.

im grateful that you apply your lack of overthinking to forum posts as well, otherwise I might actually benefit from an explanation of why its "standard" and become a better player, thanks

On December 01 2014 17:22 Tamar wrote: 4b jam pre is soo good, 21bb pre = i have AA u stu.id bas..rd!

I suppose its about as transparent as cold 4betting, I could do that