Shit like this literally is what annoys me the most. Fish chasing backdoor crap and then me feeling like the stupidest fuck in the world when I pay off lol. God damnit.

What did you think he had... Not like he's gonna turn a K into a bluff or have any kind of rundown here

whats fishy about his play lol?

Ok I've finally snapped. YOU ARE THE FISH.

It's not an insult I'm just tapping the glass.

You fucking suck

I'm now genuinely wondering if calling pot on turn with top pair and 2nd nut flush draw is a legit move, PLO noob here

that guy's turn call is standard yes

Roflmao, in case it wasn't clear my commentary here was that I'm annoyed with myself for making a bad river call. I was annoyed, because it was about the 10th time in a row in a span of a couple hundred hands that someone made a spot like this vs. me. Just standard Omaha sometimes boards don't run out in pleasing ways .

Edit: I'm also crushing the game for the last 2 months. The whole point of posting this hand is as a reminder to myself of the type of crap I'm working on stamping out of my game permanently.

Also Darace, you seem like you live to post worthless comments. Constructive criticism is fine, but go cry me a river with the kind of nonsense you post. I'm sure you have tons of hands in your personal database that I could have the same reaction to by the way. Acting like you don't, that's pure arrogance. Nobody plays perfectly in 100% of their hands.

On February 24 2015 21:06 lebowski wrote: I'm now genuinely wondering if calling pot on turn with top pair and 2nd nut flush draw is a legit move, PLO noob here

I don't think it's as slam dunk a call as Trax implies, in fact it can be out-right bad vs. some opponents (me in particular most likely).

If we think about what will likely happen:
1. On blank rivers I'm not slowing down, this includes when villain makes a weakish 2P type hand and is maybe unsure of what to do.
2. Not likely to get folds on the baby straight completion cards.
3. He pretty much has to fire when the spade hits - usually worse hands like mine will fold (I made a large error calling), but sometimes he's self-owning vs. A-high flush.
4. Similar situation with AJ109 rivers. A big part of my range won't hate those rivers, so he's playing a guessing game as to whether I'll fold if he fires the bluff on those.

The original pot was 3-ways. So my most likely holdings are probably 2pair+ or top pair+good support. When the river blanks he's going to have a lot of trouble making the big call with just 1P unimproved.

On February 25 2015 00:44 Bejamin1 wrote: Show nested quote + On February 24 2015 21:06 lebowski wrote: I'm now genuinely wondering if calling pot on turn with top pair and 2nd nut flush draw is a legit move, PLO noob here I don't think it's as slam dunk a call as Trax implies, in fact it can be out-right bad vs. some opponents (me in particular most likely). If we think about what will likely happen: 1. On blank rivers I'm not slowing down, this includes when villain makes a weakish 2P type hand and is maybe unsure of what to do. 2. Not likely to get folds on the baby straight completion cards. 3. He pretty much has to fire when the spade hits - usually worse hands like mine will fold (I made a large error calling), but sometimes he's self-owning vs. A-high flush. 4. Similar situation with AJ109 rivers. A big part of my range won't hate those rivers, so he's playing a guessing game as to whether I'll fold if he fires the bluff on those. The original pot was 3-ways. So my most likely holdings are probably 2pair+ or top pair+good support. When the river blanks he's going to have a lot of trouble making the big call with just 1P unimproved.

I can tell by the way you talk about this hand (and that you say this turn call is bad vs you) that you are a tight player. That is ok and i knew that anyways. All those points you make are considerations that go through ur head while playing the hand but they don't say anything as to whether his play is right or wrong.

Bottom line is his hand has enough equity vs your range to c/c period. Sure your range may be exploitably tight to the point his call doesn't yield much but even if you fold everything but top set im pretty sure he has a call.

He never has to call with one pair to make this turn c/c profitable I was never implying that.

You also talk about the king high flush as though it is barely a vbet when he hits. Sure sometimes he will run into the nuts but he should also be bluffing enough to comfortably be betting king high flushes (I mean u did call with significantly worse right?)

At its most basic level i look at it like this. When c/c pot you need about 33% equity not even considering any possible implied odds. So dude has king high flush draw with some A and K outs that may be good which is just about worth a 1/3rd of the pie (33% absolute equity share with the flush draw- if it was nut so discount a lil) so no matter how u slice that calling is not bad imo.

Are you seriously gonna tell me lemon that I would be better off c/f this guys hand on the turn vs you than c/c?

I think the simple fact that you would prefer villain NOT to call in this hand is evidence that you are not truly behind a turn fold here.

And honestly folding huge pieces of equity is one of the biggest mistakes you can make in poker. Only similar way to trash your EQ in poker for example is to screw up on the cards you draw in triple draw; like accidentally pulling 2 instead of 1. It's pretty bad.

not completely relevant, hu etc. but here ike is obv vbetting 2nd nut flush

Full Tilt Poker, Omaha PL - $300/$600 - 2 players
HSDB Parser v2.7 - Highstakesdb.com - Hand #4726849

luvtheWNBA (BU/SB): $72110 (120 bb)
Isildur1 (BB): $53836 (90 bb)

Pre Flop: ($900)
luvtheWNBA (BU/SB) raises to $1800, Isildur1 (BB) 3-bets to $5400, luvtheWNBA (BU/SB) calls $3600

Flop: ($10800) Qc Kc 2c (2 players)
Isildur1 (BB) bets $4800, luvtheWNBA (BU/SB) calls $4800

Turn: ($20400) 7x (2 players)
Isildur1 (BB) checks, luvtheWNBA (BU/SB) bets $12900, Isildur1 (BB) calls $12900

River: ($46200) Ax (2 players)
Isildur1 (BB) checks, luvtheWNBA (BU/SB) bets $46200, Isildur1 (BB) calls $30736 (all in)

Total pot: $107672 (Rake: $1)

Showdown:

luvtheWNBA (BU/SB) shows Jc 8 4c J
Isildur1 (BB) mucks

luvtheWNBA (BU/SB) wins $107671

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I am not remotely sure what above hand has to do with this hand or any point you are making. Infact I think the use of this hand completely weakens the rest of your argument because it is so IRRELEVANT, I have no idea why you would post it in this thread to help make your point. (Pot is 3 bet, pot is heads up, flush gets flopped, isil checks three times, its fucking 300/600). Its all very well and good talking about how folding a huge amount of equity is a big deal in plo, because yes, it is.. But.... This isn't always that spot, opponent depending.. ALSO you said:

"At its most basic level i look at it like this. When c/c pot you need about 33% equity not even considering any possible implied odds. So dude has king high flush draw with some A and K outs that may be good which is just about worth a 1/3rd of the pie (33% absolute equity share with the flush draw- if it was nut so discount a lil) so no matter how u slice that calling is not bad imo. "

Dude theres one card to come, its not 33% its something like 19.8% to hit your flush.. (Read - board pairs hurt though). Infact if we get stacked on all board pairing spades and ben folds on all other ones, we're obviously lighting money on fire.

"Bottom line is his hand has enough equity vs your range to c/c period. Sure your range may be exploitably tight to the point his call doesn't yield much but even if you fold everything but top set im pretty sure he has a call. "

- I don't understand what this means either,


Having said this, benjamins river call is obviously bad, making villains play ok (Y).. In general I think this turn play from villain ranges from std to pretty bad depending on who your opponent is.
Ben I think in general your flop bet is a little small tbh, maybe turn bet is a little large, if we bet bigger on the flop we can get a similar size turn bet in without it looking so much like KQ+. FOLD RIVERS, I mean guy elects not to cbet the flop, but to c/c instead, and then c/c again on the turn and then jam river for full pot with a bluff? This river call is literally unforgivable, this guys turn call is absolutely forgivable, if indeed its incorrect vs your range.

Equally, with your smash of pot on the turn and villain actually calling, he's pretty much telling you he has to have picked up the fd on the turn as well because otherwise he's got enough equity to actually cbet the flop instead of check calling. You should know you're beat as soon as this river comes, let alone him potting into you. If he just has something like KJT or [insert any hand that he raises pre, c/c flop and c/ turn without a flush draw] he has to just c/f the turn, therefore he pretty much has to have a fd. If you bet bigger on the flop and don't smash pot on the turn you may allow him to call with some hands that don't contain flush draws.

Hope this is useful/interesting/makes sense.

You are taking everything I said a little too literal and nit picking. I expressly said that hand I posted was unrelated. I was reading the high stakes thread on 2+2 and saw a king high flush being valuebet so I was showing Benjamin an example of that. That's it..

Obviously a fd is not 33% equity I'm not retarded. I even said to discount the equity because of the times you run into the nut flush. I said roughly 33% equity because I was considering the A and K as potential outs versus Benjamin's range not his actual hand. Plus you win sometimes unimproved etc.

Never did I say Benjamin needs 33% and has it with the fd lol.

Villain needs to call 11 to win 24. So he needs to be able to scoop that 31.5%. If you include A an K as clean outs villain has 31.1% direct equity; 31.1% of the time villain improves on the river. So even if villain never bets river and it checks down 100% he made a just about breakeven turn call. This is what I mean by that 1/3rd and having enough equity regardless of everything else on the turn (and that everything else is actually what is important which is why I say you are nitpicking and taking what I say too literally when I am trying to use generalizations to make an overall point)

Of course sometimes it will not check down and hero will bet with the best hand and villain will call and lose. However this does not sway turn to a fold because the times villain is beat is obviously more than made up for by the times villain improves and either value bets himself or c/calls. That is called implied odds and villain has them in this hand on the turn more than making up for the reverse implied odds of his potential losses to the nut flush. So with his direct odds almost dictating a call alone villain clearly has a call when you consider the extra money he makes on the river when he binks.

On February 25 2015 17:03 KeyleK_uk wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I am not remotely sure what above hand has to do with this hand or any point you are making. Infact I think the use of this hand completely weakens the rest of your argument because it is so IRRELEVANT, I have no idea why you would post it in this thread to help make your point. (Pot is 3 bet, pot is heads up, flush gets flopped, isil checks three times, its fucking 300/600). Its all very well and good talking about how folding a huge amount of equity is a big deal in plo, because yes, it is.. But.... This isn't always that spot, opponent depending.. ALSO you said: "At its most basic level i look at it like this. When c/c pot you need about 33% equity not even considering any possible implied odds. So dude has king high flush draw with some A and K outs that may be good which is just about worth a 1/3rd of the pie (33% absolute equity share with the flush draw- if it was nut so discount a lil) so no matter how u slice that calling is not bad imo. " Dude theres one card to come, its not 33% its something like 19.8% to hit your flush.. (Read - board pairs hurt though). Infact if we get stacked on all board pairing spades and ben folds on all other ones, we're obviously lighting money on fire. "Bottom line is his hand has enough equity vs your range to c/c period. Sure your range may be exploitably tight to the point his call doesn't yield much but even if you fold everything but top set im pretty sure he has a call. " - I don't understand what this means either, Having said this, benjamins river call is obviously bad, making villains play ok (Y).. In general I think this turn play from villain ranges from std to pretty bad depending on who your opponent is. Ben I think in general your flop bet is a little small tbh, maybe turn bet is a little large, if we bet bigger on the flop we can get a similar size turn bet in without it looking so much like KQ+. FOLD RIVERS, I mean guy elects not to cbet the flop, but to c/c instead, and then c/c again on the turn and then jam river for full pot with a bluff? This river call is literally unforgivable, this guys turn call is absolutely forgivable, if indeed its incorrect vs your range. Equally, with your smash of pot on the turn and villain actually calling, he's pretty much telling you he has to have picked up the fd on the turn as well because otherwise he's got enough equity to actually cbet the flop instead of check calling. You should know you're beat as soon as this river comes, let alone him potting into you. If he just has something like KJT or [insert any hand that he raises pre, c/c flop and c/ turn without a flush draw] he has to just c/f the turn, therefore he pretty much has to have a fd. If you bet bigger on the flop and don't smash pot on the turn you may allow him to call with some hands that don't contain flush draws. Hope this is useful/interesting/makes sense.

No no that's great thank you. I very much agree with your line of thinking. I think Trax is also somewhat underrating the number of times villains hand will have reverse implied odds. My flop c-bet was small from a misclick, normally it would be 82% ish and then I'd roll with the same on the turn.

In terms of river is there a reason you discount AJ10X with 1 spade blocker as being a portion of his range? I know often times myself with the AJ10X I wouldn't mind calling turn here with the intention of shoving any river. And villain was for sure loose and aggro enough to do that, at the same time I still hate my river call and think it's terribad .

Edit: Wait a minute, thinking about what you said for a second I understand you'd be discounting hands like AJ10x or KJ10x after he decides not to bet the flop nor c/r. Although I'd think given that it's 3-ways and people play pretty loose and getting his lead raised can be really ugly for him I'm not so sure we should entirely take it out of villains range.

I wouldn't say A10Jx should be completely eliminated from villain's range, but it is obviously strong enough for him to lead sometimes or even c/r

yea, I mean I think AKxx and KJT are actually quite a large part of his range in a way, AA QJT whatever, its very hard to define the bottom of his range heading into the turn, except we can be pretty sure he hasn't got a big hand. It's obviously rare for people to c/c this flop after raising pre, but something like AKxx or KJT AAxx(w/gutshot?) are probably the hands at the top of his range here and below. I do believe people bet AJTx on the flop here basically always so yea I would definitely be discounting that from his range, do you agree? Although I'm not so sure about KJTx as I would expect people to bet it generally but if they're c/c anything that definitely makes some sense.

I was saying that if he does have something like KJTx he really shouldn't be calling this turn either. - " If he just has something like KJT or [insert any hand that he raises pre, c/c flop and c/ turn without a flush draw] he has to just c/f the turn, therefore he pretty much has to have a fd." so I'm not discounting KJTx from his flop c/c range, I agree some people will think its ugly if they get raised so elect not to bet and then go ahead and c/c, but if they do then they really can't call this turn bet without turning a flush draw also, that's what I was trying to say.

In this hand I don't really think he has too much reverse implied at all to be honest, I just think if you are betting something that isn't beating him (AJTetc) its always shoving the river so his king is practically worthless and you shouldn't be calling when the flush hits which makes his turn call bad, which is what you were saying I just think you probably have hands that call river more often than you have nut flush so reverse implieds don't really apply. You're right though, don't listen to all the haters, we all make mistakes, fortunately our opponents make more.



Trax, you are quite possibly right, I was possibly being too nitpicky and frankly not making the effort to try to understand alot of the things you said, so I apologise. I just really thought it was significantly closer than you thought and i thought there needed to be another voice ITT.

A10J can be discounted agreed. I actually agree with most of what you are saying. Only things I would add are the king is not completely worthless because sometimes river will check down and you will win unimproved; for example Ben barreling the wrap himself but then just giving up the river for whatever reason. Even though a player shouldn't do this doesn't mean they won't. I don't think this factor is huge or sways it to a call I think it is a call already but surely the TPTK is not totally useless.

You also say villain pretty much has to have the flush draw. I agree with your assessment and believe his range is largely FDs too but I would be careful not to peg people too squarely because some people can do a better job of merging than others and actually bluff/bet properly to where if you don't have some calling range then you are the one making the mistake.

And the last and really main thing I suppose we disagree on is the nature of the river spot itself (and tangentially or derivatively whether villain has implied odds on the turn). I find when the OOP player on the river in this spot runs into the nut flush it is in fact a good spot to get further value with either a valuebet or c/c, shit even a c/r if you are playing a disabled monkey.

Peachy, tian

What are u doing in villain's shoe's on the turn. I play mostly HU maybe I'm missing something you 6max guys see that I don't

On February 26 2015 04:24 traxamillion wrote: Peachy, tian What are u doing in villain's shoe's on the turn. I play mostly HU maybe I'm missing something you 6max guys see that I don't

This is the problem then, I play both heads up and 6 max and the dynamic and hand strengths in certain spots are like night and day.

As a (hopefully somewhat relevant) example, if I'm playing a decentish heads up player I need something like an SPR of 2.7 to just 4 bet pretty much all ok AA hands (AAT4 1s etc) and its fine. In 6m there are spots where people are 3 betting buttons with hands that are just really good against AA and you might not want to 4bet even with an spr of say 2.4, especially as they can define you as having AA much more often in 6m 4 bet than in a decent hu game.

What I suppose we can conclude is that, in my opinion you're undervalueing the strength of a regs (PLO50) range when he does stab this flop and follow up the turn. I definitely agree the king isn't worthless but at these stakes its really not going to be good often at all. I think its likely at plo5k (6max) this turn would be absolutely standard, but I'm not good enough to play there so its hard for me to say (PEACHY? ).