Why did you 3bet this?

edit: Well I guess it's not good enough to flat, but is 3betting this vs these 2 villains +ev I wonder.

Probably not 3betting this vs UTG since his calling range crushes us and there are hands with near the same equity with much better playability here. As played dunno probably a call, you block pretty much all of his flush combos except KQcc and theoretically he should only have a few combos that beat us. On another note dunno if he would happily 3barrel AK there

^

probs folding pre, oop with a rio hand vs two strong ranges. Suited I'd flat.

I dont really like your flop checks, they don't accomplish much, your range is extremely narrow as it is when u squeeze utg+ mp and you can bet your entire range on the flop without villain being able to exploit it. As it is you are making it easier for villain to play the middle/bottom part of his range here and his draws by either checking flop or betting flop and checking turn. Obv as the hand played out , if villain is bad he will turn up with flushes on the river, but the most likely holdings that he should have that beat you should be KQ and tens , both of which should also be betting turn.As played, there is not much u can do but call river.However this line sucks, imagine how much harder it would be for villain to play this river when faced with a 3barrel while holding AQ/AK, instead of your passive line. J is a really bad river for AQ/AK so villain should very well check behind those hands, since u made that possible for him by check calling all the way.

I don't like a bet on the flop. We either crush him or we are crushed, we dont accomplish anything by betting tbh
HIs calling range is something like TT-QQ AJs+, AQo+ and KQs. He doesn't really have a hard decision with AK/AQ as he can call 2 barrels and fold the river on this board meaning he would play perfectly

preflop is standard, flop works either way (vs fish it's prob even better to check imo), river sucks but I'd still call

On June 26 2015 12:11 lebowski wrote: preflop is standard, flop works either way (vs fish it's prob even better to check imo), river sucks but I'd still call

Troll? Preflop is definitely not standard...

fold/call pre depending on UTG stats(at these stakes i see many regs pfr % is higher UTG than UTG+1), fold turn, call river as played.

On June 26 2015 13:05 4TM wrote: Show nested quote + On June 26 2015 12:11 lebowski wrote: preflop is standard, flop works either way (vs fish it's prob even better to check imo), river sucks but I'd still call Troll? Preflop is definitely not standard...

so what you're saying is that you're only pure value squeezing preflop, like 3%
squeeze>call>fold

ofc not, except AJ isnt a hand to be doing that with sqz s prob the worst option here

On June 26 2015 11:45 Spitfiree wrote: I don't like a bet on the flop. We either crush him or we are crushed, we dont accomplish anything by betting tbh HIs calling range is something like TT-QQ AJs+, AQo+ and KQs. He doesn't really have a hard decision with AK/AQ as he can call 2 barrels and fold the river on this board meaning he would play perfectly

Your are thinking about our specific holding, while i'm trying to work range vs range. Our narrow squeezing range crushes this board, there is really no reason not to bet all our range on the flop. Checking and calling helps villain in the sense that he is always betting better hands, and now has the option to check back his middle/bottom part of his range( weak pairs/underpairs/draws).Even if villain folds AK every time on that river when we bet, we can bet Ak there ourselves and win the pot there, whereas by checking the river , villain can check back and split the pot. So the middle of villains range, which is near the top of his folding range-that is the best hand that villain is folding on the river- ( Ak/AQ ) now has an easier way of realizing its equity, by using his positional advantage and checking, instead of folding to a third barrel.

On June 26 2015 17:08 Spitfiree wrote: ofc not, except AJ isnt a hand to be doing that with sqz s prob the worst option here

what hand do you choose to squeeze over AJo/AQo
squeeze is definitely not worse than folding, you can't be serious

I dont know what all the fuss is about looks like a pretty standardish hand. Maybe the further we are from UTG the more inclined we are to use a polarized 3 bet out of position?

hmm?

On June 26 2015 18:42 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On June 26 2015 17:08 Spitfiree wrote: ofc not, except AJ isnt a hand to be doing that with sqz s prob the worst option here what hand do you choose to squeeze over AJo/AQo squeeze is definitely not worse than folding, you can't be serious

Thats why i said probably, not quite sure if its worse than folding * calling s better ye
I'd rather sqz 56s for example - it has better equity vs his calling range plus much better playability. It's not like we re sqzing AJo for value and its not like our blockers accomplish much

Pb you're right i failed there and went for the certain scenario certain hands
@casino exactly we re going for more polarized range then why include AJo? Do we expect to be sqzing AJo for value ?!

if he opens wide i 3bet here often, call is fine too, its a good blocker hand to 3bet and flops strong enough top pairs to continue, i like as played preflop, but if im squeezing a wide enough range im barreling this flop and turn since i would with my air hands etc.

On June 26 2015 19:57 Spitfiree wrote: Show nested quote + On June 26 2015 18:42 lebowski wrote:   On June 26 2015 17:08 Spitfiree wrote: ofc not, except AJ isnt a hand to be doing that with sqz s prob the worst option here what hand do you choose to squeeze over AJo/AQo squeeze is definitely not worse than folding, you can't be serious Thats why i said probably, not quite sure if its worse than folding * calling s better ye I'd rather sqz 56s for example - it has better equity vs his calling range plus much better playability. It's not like we re sqzing AJo for value and its not like our blockers accomplish much Pb you're right i failed there and went for the certain scenario certain hands @casino exactly we re going for more polarized range then why include AJo? Do we expect to be sqzing AJo for value ?!

small suited connectors don't block any value 4betting or 4bet bluffing hands
they also flop worse vs all pps that flat or could flat pre (up to slowplayed monsters); AQo/AJo is ahead or flipping vs most suited broadway hands
(KJs/QJs type of hands also flop better draws than small scs)

people usually 4bet AK unless they see someone with very low sqz, which makes domination a smaller factor to consider

I would guess that if positions were say CO vs BB then squeezing AJ is absolutely standard because we can call vs a 4 bet and be ahead of our opponents range.

My intuition says that if we 3 bet AJ we can't profitably continue vs a UTG 4 bet range so we are more inclined to use hands like Axs and 67s, AA, KK as 3 bets

On June 26 2015 20:45 Ryan Neilly wrote: call is fine too

I don't think a call here is good at all. It's break even at best. We need 21% equity to call and we have like 25% ish I'm guessing. Being oop and then having to play a hand that's often dominated makes me think calling is the worst option pre.

About squeezing pre, I think I'd be more inclined to do it with like Axs and suited connectors.

On June 26 2015 20:58 casinocasino wrote: I would guess that if positions were say CO vs BB then squeezing AJ is absolutely standard because we can call vs a 4 bet and be ahead of our opponents range. My intuition says that if we 3 bet AJ we can't profitably continue vs a UTG 4 bet range so we are more inclined to use hands like Axs and 67s, AA, KK as 3 bets

You don't have to call a 4bet from utg when you squeeze. The question is what plays better vs their range when they call and what blocks stuff they'd want to 4bet in the first place

So what are you suggesting? to have a range of AA, KK, and AK to continue vs a 4 bet and to fold everything else?

On June 26 2015 21:12 casinocasino wrote: So what are you suggesting? to have a range of AA, KK, and AK to continue vs a 4 bet and to fold everything else?

what's the difference if you're squeeze/folding suited connectors and Axs anyway? That's just a matter of not overdoing it with squeezes vs ep.
my point is that if we're going to have a sqz/fold range the best start when constructing it is including AQo/AJo because they block and play better. If utg villain is wide and 4bet happy we can treat the situation as if it was steal positions and play accordingly (rare case). If people flat a lot of 99-JJ or suited broadways then AQ/AJ is better than Axs or scs

Okay I understand what you are saying. I personally do not know the answer.

However my intuition tells me that the less frequent you expect your opponents to 4 bet bluff the more often you want to have a polarized range. AJ and KQ do not fit well into a polarized range, they fit well against a 4 bet range of 15%+. No good opponent is going to be 4 betting that wide from UTG vs a OOP 3 bet.

wp.

On June 26 2015 21:07 Trav94 wrote: Show nested quote + On June 26 2015 20:45 Ryan Neilly wrote: call is fine too I don't think a call here is good at all. It's break even at best. We need 21% equity to call and we have like 25% ish I'm guessing. Being oop and then having to play a hand that's often dominated makes me think calling is the worst option pre. About squeezing pre, I think I'd be more inclined to do it with like Axs and suited connectors.

makes good sense, idk sometimes i call vs strong players that open utg with AJ, am I making a big mistake by ever doing so? even in 3 way pots like this, say one of the better players opens utg and a decent reg calls i flat often, but if its like reg + fish i 3bet, should i just 3bet this everytime?

On June 26 2015 21:54 handbanana21 wrote: wp.

btw total agree wp i like your line a lot idk why u get flamed a lot here.

if i 3bet AJ and this flop comes out,i x/x, turn i x/x as well as our implied range is capped and his implied range is 25% of the deck (+/- 15% player dependent)

we are not folding, esp because all hands like Q9cc etc that had equity now can only win by going all-in.

I take this line and ppl bet bet jam with weird shit JQ, QK, clubs, some turn pocket pairs into bluffs here, in general your going to be making a ton with this line and this is the only way i can see playing the hand the more i think on it.

fold preflop!!

flop and turn i play the same ...

u can't fold river holding Ac tho it is tough to find what hands he shoves there with that you beat, or how he can be bluffing.

marshall thx will plug that one

I personally sometimes have enough pure airballs in villains spot (pocket pairs, some suited shit) that hero can snap on that alone. Depends what villain does with AK and if he folds on the 3rd street. If I'm just playing tight anon zoom games I agree villain usually just check folds

On June 26 2015 20:58 casinocasino wrote: I would guess that if positions were say CO vs BB then squeezing AJ is absolutely standard because we can call vs a 4 bet and be ahead of our opponents range. My intuition says that if we 3 bet AJ we can't profitably continue vs a UTG 4 bet range so we are more inclined to use hands like Axs and 67s, AA, KK as 3 bets

oaky yea thats what i mean as well

I remember saying Lem0n won't be playing 200nl in 2 years like over a year ago or something.
Soon it is time to say "i told you so".

On June 28 2015 07:42 cariadon wrote: I remember saying Lem0n won't be playing 200nl in 2 years like over a year ago or something. Soon it is time to say "i told you so".

good job reminding us that you are a dick

I was trying to help.