I guess fold?? he called pre&flop very fast

1. i never 3bet this hand in this spot preflop.
2. your flop bet is way too big! u narrow his range too much when u size like this.
3. he has just about no bluffs once he gets to the turn here and makes a bet ... hes repping all hands better than yours....hes obviously not doing this with KJ or QQ ... so it means he has 45s, or 56s .... or 77/33/AQ/AJ/A7/A3.

so how much? around 6$?
my only worry about betting so small is that I have trouble building the pot when I have it

thanks a lot for the advice man

On August 16 2015 20:06 MARSHALL28 wrote: 1. i never 3bet this hand in this spot preflop.

Why not? Are we still 3betting linear here? Or is there some reason to exclude this strength hand?

u arent getting his full stack when u have it regardless how you size it unless he has an equally strong hand and u cooler him. if u cooler him, u get his stack no matter how u size flop, might as well take advantage of the money u can make from the weaker parts of his range.

that means we should bet bigger with our bluffs if villain folds everything but KQ+ ?

haha i pretty much disagree with every point marshall made. I would play it the same and snap riv vs any fish (as long as its not a 20/8 type reg fish. Not saying hes wrong, I just dont fold vs fish much at all.

On August 17 2015 11:32 handbanana21 wrote: haha i pretty much disagree with every point marshall made. I would play it the same and snap riv vs any fish (as long as its not a 20/8 type reg fish. Not saying hes wrong, I just dont fold vs fish much at all.

well there's no player i respect in the games i play regularly who would make this flop bet.

but i suppose half of all the 1k and most of the 2k regs could just be missing something that you get.

On August 17 2015 03:31 Fayth wrote: that means we should bet bigger with our bluffs if villain folds everything but KQ+ ?

you're close. think broader.

On August 16 2015 20:06 MARSHALL28 wrote: 1. i never 3bet this hand in this spot preflop. 2. your flop bet is way too big! u narrow his range too much when u size like this. 3. he has just about no bluffs once he gets to the turn here and makes a bet ... hes repping all hands better than yours....hes obviously not doing this with KJ or QQ ... so it means he has 45s, or 56s .... or 77/33/AQ/AJ/A7/A3.

While I agree with you and usually do because.you obviously play well 2 points. I cbet 4-6 bucks this flop and the number is probably 5.

1) It goes without saying that on any hand where someone is betting more than half pot on the flop you recommend they make it smaller. Lol you have drilled that into us. Thanks though it is good advice

2)if that flop bet folds out most of his range what is he left with on turn to vbet other than 6 set combos if he peels the 3bet with 33, one KK and 3 AA if he is being tricky but we can discount this a bit I think, and the few Ax suited that turn A3 and A7 2pairs? If his value range is so tight we would not need him to turn a pair into a bluff often at all to make turn a call; even the nittiest of nits bet sometimes in villains spot when checked to on the turn aND the ace drops.

For example other than the bet sizing (and even then) hero's line would be considered pretty standard HU sometimes. Having Qs ain't great but w/e. I get that ring games with tighter ranges it can be completely different.

On August 17 2015 13:45 MARSHALL28 wrote: Show nested quote + On August 17 2015 11:32 handbanana21 wrote: haha i pretty much disagree with every point marshall made. I would play it the same and snap riv vs any fish (as long as its not a 20/8 type reg fish. Not saying hes wrong, I just dont fold vs fish much at all. well there's no player i respect in the games i play regularly who would make this flop bet. but i suppose half of all the 1k and most of the 2k regs could just be missing something that you get.

wow you don't respect sauce, wel I guess you don't play with him

I mean come on, you should know that you can use different sizings on the same board texture with your range...

regarding the sizing, isn't it considered best to bet bigger vs fish to exploit that they generally disregard sizes and call down light or float with anything?
I mean here I used a cbet size that is (stupidly perhaps) standard for me in this spot but I could have gone for more up to 3/4 pot and I think the fish would call with any pair/pp any gutshot etc (ok if I potted even the fish would realize that it's a big bet)

i bet half pot or 2/3rds or 3/4s or overbet a lot too, u guys just keep posting spots where u have rly tough decisions on later streets cuz u arent sizing flop correctly.

and sauce doesnt play 1k or 2k, but he doesn't make that bet either.

anyways ... i was just trying to help u guys out ... i could not tho i guess..

I think you just need to stop thinking in terms of absolute, wether exploitative or GTO, saying stuff like "I never 3bet KQ in this spot pre flop" is just wrong, 3betting sometimes is fine, calling is also fine, folding is probably not

On August 17 2015 18:23 MARSHALL28 wrote: i bet half pot or 2/3rds or 3/4s or overbet a lot too, u guys just keep posting spots where u have rly tough decisions on later streets cuz u arent sizing flop correctly. and sauce doesnt play 1k or 2k, but he doesn't make that bet either. anyways ... i was just trying to help u guys out ... i could not tho i guess..

I'm pretty certain nobody would want you to stop commenting HHs even if you finished every post with "suck my dick"

I only don't understand why is this not a 3bet pre

I thought Marshall evolved from a jackass to a nice guy, what happened you reverted back or something?

As Fayth claims you are wrong and if you never 3Bet KQo there then you are making a mistake.


About the sizing postflop you can reach an equilibrium with both sizings, if you advocate an exploitative smaller sizing its totally valid and I agree with it, but I dont see why you disregards Fayth comment about bluff sizing, is it unbalance what worries you in 1/2?

On August 18 2015 02:01 Baalim wrote: I thought Marshall evolved from a jackass to a nice guy, what happened you reverted back or something?

That inflated ego from crushing bovada cans.

On August 17 2015 18:37 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On August 17 2015 18:23 MARSHALL28 wrote: i bet half pot or 2/3rds or 3/4s or overbet a lot too, u guys just keep posting spots where u have rly tough decisions on later streets cuz u arent sizing flop correctly. and sauce doesnt play 1k or 2k, but he doesn't make that bet either. anyways ... i was just trying to help u guys out ... i could not tho i guess.. I'm pretty certain nobody would want you to stop commenting HHs even if you finished every post with "suck my dick"

lol

dont rly even know what i said that was so upsetting ... a lot of ppl here very touchy i guess ...

and so quick to tell me im wrong, without giving any actual arguments.

i never even told anybody they were wrong, lol. u guys r definitely more rude than i am

I actually tend to agree with handbanana and Baal here too..

Generally vs a fish, i am going to be 3betting this hand actually a majority of the time pre in most scenarios. There are some exceptions but I think never 3betting this hand pre vs a fish is bad and the assertion that we don't stack him in some other sort of way other than coolering him is wrong imo. It's a fish! Fish make massive mistakes and it's totally plausible if we cbet flop small, that he floats with something he shouldn't and makes a huge mistake on a later street where we might end up stacking him..

I do agree with Marshall's point about the flop cbet being a bit big (I like going $5 here) but I also think Fayth asks a valid question in "if he folds KQ+, if we go bigger, then we should bet bigger with bluffs?" - the answer to that question is that I think although our sizing does for sure affect his continuing range on the flop in a big way, fish will still do retarded shit vs a bigger sizing and there's no way in hell a fish only continues with KQ+ on this flop unless we like overbet 1.5x pot or something ridiculous.

Long story short, 3betting pre seems fine, flop sizing could be a bit smaller (but it's OK) and I'm calling down here. The river bet is laying us too good of a price to fold vs this type of player. It does feels like Ax a majority of the time but vs our flop sizing, I expect him to continue with lots of stuff and there's a very good chance he could decide to turn an already made hand or non made hand into a bluff. There's also still a possibly (albeit much smaller I think) that he could be vbetting a worse Kx.

He's a fish. Nothing is totally out of the question.

On August 17 2015 18:23 MARSHALL28 wrote: i bet half pot or 2/3rds or 3/4s or overbet a lot too, u guys just keep posting spots where u have rly tough decisions on later streets cuz u arent sizing flop correctly. and sauce doesnt play 1k or 2k, but he doesn't make that bet either. anyways ... i was just trying to help u guys out ... i could not tho i guess..

Marshall don't take this the wrong way...

We appreciate you posting on lots of hands. It's great for discussion. This site needs that for sure. It's just when you say "I was trying to help people out but I could not though I guess", it's like you're saying we're super privileged or something to receive your analysis on hands. It just comes off as very arrogant to some people and I think that's what you're being attacked somewhat.

Just don't take every post so personally. We're all trying to benefit mutually here from discussing hands with one another..

A fish or a reg, never 3 betting KQ against an opening range around 50% is simply bad because our range will be too polarized against a range that is forced to call with many hands we dominate such as JTo QTo etc, so this is certainly not an always 3Bet we want KQ in our calling range but also on our 3 betting one.

And yes you are being very obnoxious in this hand Marshall, everyone is either wrong about this or you are not seeing it, what do you think its logically more plausible?

how can 6 be the right bet size and 8 be "WAY TOO BIG!"

Theoretically we force villain to defend an extra 10 or so combos of hands at the expense of getting 2$ less. Maybe that's marginally better (it probably has slightly better EV in modern solvers) but it's almost irrelevant in practice.

In this spot we're against the fish though, exploitatively going even bigger than OP's size (10-14) for the reason's OP gave earlier (fish call mostly irregardless of bet size) has got to be best.

By the river, what do we beat? I mean we have to get pretty creative to even imagine some hands that we can beat. Undercard BDFD floats like QJ/JT and maybe some small pairs like 3x but even if we add up all those combos, it's still not enough to justify a call vs the massive amounts of value hands he has.

On August 18 2015 05:38 Smuft wrote: how can 6 be the right bet size and 8 be "WAY TOO BIG!" Theoretically we force villain to defend an extra 10 or so combos of hands at the expense of getting 2$ less. Maybe that's marginally better (it probably has slightly better EV in modern solvers) but it's almost irrelevant in practice. In this spot we're against the fish though, exploitatively going even bigger than OP's size (10-14) for the reason's OP gave earlier (fish call mostly irregardless of bet size) has got to be best. By the river, what do we beat? I mean we have to get pretty creative to even imagine some hands that we can beat. Undercard BDFD floats like QJ/JT and maybe some small pairs like 3x but even if we add up all those combos, it's still not enough to justify a call vs the massive amounts of value hands he has.

ok, I take back what I said about calling river

Smuft is GTO god, fold river

On August 18 2015 05:38 Smuft wrote: how can 6 be the right bet size and 8 be "WAY TOO BIG!" Theoretically we force villain to defend an extra 10 or so combos of hands at the expense of getting 2$ less. Maybe that's marginally better (it probably has slightly better EV in modern solvers) but it's almost irrelevant in practice. In this spot we're against the fish though, exploitatively going even bigger than OP's size (10-14) for the reason's OP gave earlier (fish call mostly irregardless of bet size) has got to be best. By the river, what do we beat? I mean we have to get pretty creative to even imagine some hands that we can beat. Undercard BDFD floats like QJ/JT and maybe some small pairs like 3x but even if we add up all those combos, it's still not enough to justify a call vs the massive amounts of value hands he has.

Generally i agree vs anyone with half a brain, but man fish are crazy.. they will pot a hand like 10s7s on the river and think nothing of it. Its really important to know what type of fish we're up against of course.

On August 18 2015 06:01 handbanana21 wrote: Show nested quote + On August 18 2015 05:38 Smuft wrote: how can 6 be the right bet size and 8 be "WAY TOO BIG!" Theoretically we force villain to defend an extra 10 or so combos of hands at the expense of getting 2$ less. Maybe that's marginally better (it probably has slightly better EV in modern solvers) but it's almost irrelevant in practice. In this spot we're against the fish though, exploitatively going even bigger than OP's size (10-14) for the reason's OP gave earlier (fish call mostly irregardless of bet size) has got to be best. By the river, what do we beat? I mean we have to get pretty creative to even imagine some hands that we can beat. Undercard BDFD floats like QJ/JT and maybe some small pairs like 3x but even if we add up all those combos, it's still not enough to justify a call vs the massive amounts of value hands he has. Generally i agree vs anyone with half a brain, but man fish are crazy.. they will pot a hand like 10s7s on the river and think nothing of it. Its really important to know what type of fish we're up against of course.

agree w/ this.

i think hand is wp for most part
i don't rly 3bet this hand pre as my standard, mostly because i want to have KQ in my calling range. KQs is always a 3bet tho.
sizing on flop is okay, a little big due to few-ish draws but overall alright.
river is def. player dependent, i don't mind a call just to see what he has since we have basically nut bluffcatcher. i don't see villain holding just one pair of aces, like ever, so if we're beat it's gotta be 2pair+

what tim said. Marshall your input is greatly valued... but its not gospel. Its ok for other players to disagree with you. Its up to the OP to weed through the information and draw his own conclusion.

On August 18 2015 05:38 Smuft wrote: (it probably has slightly better EV in modern solvers)

Modern Solvers? Is there something beyond SP & PIO?

On August 18 2015 05:38 Smuft wrote: how can 6 be the right bet size and 8 be "WAY TOO BIG!" Theoretically we force villain to defend an extra 10 or so combos of hands at the expense of getting 2$ less. Maybe that's marginally better (it probably has slightly better EV in modern solvers) but it's almost irrelevant in practice. In this spot we're against the fish though, exploitatively going even bigger than OP's size (10-14) for the reason's OP gave earlier (fish call mostly irregardless of bet size) has got to be best. By the river, what do we beat? I mean we have to get pretty creative to even imagine some hands that we can beat. Undercard BDFD floats like QJ/JT and maybe some small pairs like 3x but even if we add up all those combos, it's still not enough to justify a call vs the massive amounts of value hands he has.

we arent like really all that good at playing gto. humans i mean. the smaller size does a bunch of sweet things against regs and against donks ... main thing being allowing me to bet basically 100% of my range here. i win all the pots we both flop nothing, i have something on this board way more than he does, so when i do have something, i give him the chance to bluff raise w/ little to no equity.

disagree about river, it's the turn that's a fold. i don't think it's close particularly after our flop sizing.

On August 18 2015 05:19 TimDawg wrote: Show nested quote + On August 17 2015 18:23 MARSHALL28 wrote: i bet half pot or 2/3rds or 3/4s or overbet a lot too, u guys just keep posting spots where u have rly tough decisions on later streets cuz u arent sizing flop correctly. and sauce doesnt play 1k or 2k, but he doesn't make that bet either. anyways ... i was just trying to help u guys out ... i could not tho i guess.. Marshall don't take this the wrong way... We appreciate you posting on lots of hands. It's great for discussion. This site needs that for sure. It's just when you say "I was trying to help people out but I could not though I guess", it's like you're saying we're super privileged or something to receive your analysis on hands. It just comes off as very arrogant to some people and I think that's what you're being attacked somewhat. Just don't take every post so personally. We're all trying to benefit mutually here from discussing hands with one another..

ok

oh, and i think overall i give most fish way way more credit than the rest of you guys. i think the average fish hand reads decently well and doesn't play all that bad postflop. of course u have the crazy fish who don't have a clue what they are doing, but that type of fish comes around much less often than the nit fish that i play against regularly.

I imagine that the avg fish @ nl100 is much worse than @ nl1000
this guy snap called flop bet and turned his hand into a bluff very fast on the turn with 67dd
I called down river because halfpot +fish seemed difficult for me not to pay off, I wonder what he'd do on the river if he had missed
but yeah, this is the river I probably always have to fold, I regretted it while I was clicking call tbh

67 huh? not a hand i suspected! surprised to see that bet the turn.

avg fish .. i dunno, i dont necessarily think its true that fish at 1knl are that much better than fish at 100nl .... maybe its slightly true for the fish who is a semi regular in the games but not losing as much as the random fish who shows up ... but ... a fish is a fish.

btw, i was wrong about not 3betting this hand. snowie thinks its good.