haha

omg. this is soul breaking. i am in shock

Wp by educa-poker but I doubt people will be able to bluff at correct frequencies here even at nosebleeds (? correct me if I'm wrong) and the ones who do tend to make it right usually count combos and do not overbluff. Of course if lottenice had a hand like K9s it sucks but for example from my research on RedBaron (debatably best 6 max player atm) even he tends to underbluff on the river. Seems like trying to balance the calling range vs shove here is a bit ahead of what's needed at the moment and perhaps will be more useful in the future when people will try to exploit overfolds in this fashion.

this is the gto troll endgame

On November 04 2015 19:37 PoorUser wrote: this is the gto troll endgame

lol so 18 x pot... think Lotte has to call with Kx... sizing indicates that this will be a bluff very often. hands playing the board can just fold i think. it may be problematic if Lotte never has AK when he checks river, esp if stacks are even deeper

you don't have to call everytime with Kx, but probably should call a very low % of it

lol

On November 05 2015 01:28 fira wrote: hands playing the board can just fold i think

You mean, you don't recommend investing another 90 blinds to protect your initial ~2.5 for a chop?

wtf just happened here

the fuck he call that?

On November 05 2015 17:24 devon06atX wrote: Show nested quote + On November 05 2015 01:28 fira wrote: hands playing the board can just fold i think You mean, you don't recommend investing another 90 blinds to protect your initial ~2.5 for a chop?

It's not a chop. It's a situation where their ranges are perfectly polarized and the value range for shoving river will always be AK, and bluffing range probably some 9x Tx or perhaps Axs sometimes since lottenice might decide to call with A blocker at some frequency. If educa-poker's range is balanced and lottenice doesn't have major theorical flaws in his game on the river the best result is yeld by always having a shoving range. What is debatable here about Lottenice's choice is that following GTO theory the only reason he should ever call here is that if he always folds his opponent might be induced to shove all his bluff hands for profit (since his fold equity will be effectively 100%). In reality this will not happen so there's no point in calling unless you face an opponent that really wants to exploit you by shoving any amount of huge overpot bets. Much like if you play NL2 you don't need to care about folding too much to 3bets since nobody will exploit you.

I thought it may have to do educa making lottee indifferent to calling with Kx. Edu is the only one with AK in the range so he risks nothing doing this with Kx and may never be doing this without at least a king. If Edu does this properly then either lotte has to fold the chop sometimes or pay off AK. These are both good results for educa obviously, basically unexploitable (not like lotte is flatting much AK pre giving up ev there in order to defend against something like this) and the sizing is clearly the bigger the better

On November 05 2015 22:39 traxamillion wrote: I thought it may have to do educa making lottee indifferent to calling with Kx. Edu is the only one with AK in the range so he risks nothing doing this with Kx and may never be doing this without at least a king. If Edu does this properly then either lotte has to fold the chop sometimes or pay off AK. These are both good results for educa obviously, basically unexploitable (not like lotte is flatting much AK pre giving up ev there in order to defend against something like this) and the sizing is clearly the bigger the better

I didn't run a CREV sim on this particular situation - of course if educa-poker shoves his non AK king straights there's then a portion of the range that lottenice will split with and a nuts/air portion. This seems incredibly hard to study and balance correctly but I could see how it could exploitively work against some opponents prone to extreme leveling at high stakes.
As far as I know in GTO theory these huge overbets usually happen in a nuts/air vs bluffcatch situation, and I would guess educa_poker is incentivized to add a portion of his straights in his shove range only if lottence has to bluffcatch with hands which are not straights. Of course lottenice could make a bad mistake and calling too light like in the hand kanu7 played vs redbaron at nl40k. Yet if you are not playing a well constructed mixed gto strategy I believe you can most likely get more EV by sizing your K-straights lower than shove.

But if you say that he only shoves K-straights and AK this way and it's unexploitable I have to disagree with you. I actually think it's a pretty huge -EV play compared to other options. If educa shoves every straight this way he will be capped when he bets any other bet sizing and also he never incentivize the opponent to call the shove because he will simply not have bluffs in his range. Sure he's never losing in the shoving situation but he will never get paid off when he has the nuts and never exploit the opponent potentially overfolding by playing his air this way.

In theory, if ranges are capped, Educa should always bet as much as he can with the nuts. The bigger he bets, more bluffs he can fit in to steal his opponents equity from the pot. That way he can treat the problem as his opponents always folds since his bet is indifferent and larger bet = more folds.

It's a hilarious since you rarely get to see hardcore theory in practice and then get a call. lol

standard

On November 06 2015 04:40 AndrewSong wrote: In theory, if ranges are capped, Educa should always bet as much as he can with the nuts. The bigger he bets, more bluffs he can fit in to steal his opponents equity from the pot. That way he can treat the problem as his opponents always folds since his bet is indifferent and larger bet = more folds. It's a hilarious since you rarely get to see hardcore theory in practice and then get a call. lol

The funny thing is, you always see the guy have the nuts...

lol

fucking whatever

maysil baysil

On November 05 2015 17:24 devon06atX wrote: Show nested quote + On November 05 2015 01:28 fira wrote: hands playing the board can just fold i think You mean, you don't recommend investing another 90 blinds to protect your initial ~2.5 for a chop?

lol. it would be pretty risky i think