I like it more if it was K54 flop A, especially BBvBU, SBvBB limp/called pot not so sure, not clear at all about what I think of this.

Probably pushing it a bit to hard, but I think I like both either going small bet (bit wider) or polerizeing quite hard with tons of checking+sizeing up.

I would go polar and very big on turn and river, the Ten doesn't really help them that much, potentially they have JT, and they have all the AT, 5Tdd/4Tdd are cancelled out preflop. perhaps they have KQ, they ought to imo. but then because of your small flop bet they have a lot of weaker Ax, which means you should probably still be jamming river hands like AQ. the QT hand you can use it for showdown value or blocker jamming value on river. the solver im guessing will mix in a small amount of overbets with mostly checks. but that's a wild guess. Keen to see results

I don't have too much experience in limp-raised pots like this, though.

Thanks, good stuff again, Im with you! Gonna plug it into PIO, not knowing what his SBranges are really but just to simulate something, to see if this is used at all even. Curious!

if it helps i've simmed for 2.5x/limp on SB:


This is what sb defends vs raise to 35 vs limp :

Kc3c: 0.994644284,
Kd3d: 0.994644284,
Kh3h: 0.994644284,
Ks3s: 0.994644284,
3d3c: 0.993637204,
3h3c: 0.993637204,
3h3d: 0.993637204,
3s3c: 0.993637204,
3s3d: 0.993637204,
3s3h: 0.993637204,
Qc6c: 0.991363645,
Qd6d: 0.991363645,
Qh6h: 0.991363645,
Qs6s: 0.991363645,
Kc2c: 0.985015988,
Kd2d: 0.985015988,
Kh2h: 0.985015988,
Ks2s: 0.985015988,
Ac8d: 0.983551145,
Ac8h: 0.983551145,
Ac8s: 0.983551145,
Ad8c: 0.983551145,
Ad8h: 0.983551145,
Ad8s: 0.983551145,
Ah8c: 0.983551145,
Ah8d: 0.983551145,
Ah8s: 0.983551145,
As8c: 0.983551145,
As8d: 0.983551145,
As8h: 0.983551145,
Qc2c: 0.983184934,
Qd2d: 0.983184934,
Qh2h: 0.983184934,
Qs2s: 0.983184934,
Ac7d: 0.980880857,
Ac7h: 0.980880857,
Ac7s: 0.980880857,
Ad7c: 0.980880857,
Ad7h: 0.980880857,
Ad7s: 0.980880857,
Ah7c: 0.980880857,
Ah7d: 0.980880857,
Ah7s: 0.980880857,
As7c: 0.980880857,
As7d: 0.980880857,
As7h: 0.980880857,
Ac2c: 0.973877072,
Ad2d: 0.973877072,
Ah2h: 0.973877072,
As2s: 0.973877072,
Ac6c: 0.968658566,
Ad6d: 0.968658566,
Ah6h: 0.968658566,
As6s: 0.968658566,
4d4c: 0.963012815,
4h4c: 0.963012815,
4h4d: 0.963012815,
4s4c: 0.963012815,
4s4d: 0.963012815,
4s4h: 0.963012815,
Qc5c: 0.959930539,
Qd5d: 0.959930539,
Qh5h: 0.959930539,
Qs5s: 0.959930539,
Jc9d: 0.959533811,
Jc9h: 0.959533811,
Jc9s: 0.959533811,
Jd9c: 0.959533811,
Jd9h: 0.959533811,
Jd9s: 0.959533811,
Jh9c: 0.959533811,
Jh9d: 0.959533811,
Jh9s: 0.959533811,
Js9c: 0.959533811,
Js9d: 0.959533811,
Js9h: 0.959533811,
Ac9d: 0.957214475,
Ac9h: 0.957214475,
Ac9s: 0.957214475,
Ad9c: 0.957214475,
Ad9h: 0.957214475,
Ad9s: 0.957214475,
Ah9c: 0.957214475,
Ah9d: 0.957214475,
Ah9s: 0.957214475,
As9c: 0.957214475,
As9d: 0.957214475,
As9h: 0.957214475,
8c5c: 0.9536134,
8d5d: 0.9536134,
8h5h: 0.9536134,
8s5s: 0.9536134,
Qc9d: 0.950409055,
Qc9h: 0.950409055,
Qc9s: 0.950409055,
Qd9c: 0.950409055,
Qd9h: 0.950409055,
Qd9s: 0.950409055,
Qh9c: 0.950409055,
Qh9d: 0.950409055,
Qh9s: 0.950409055,
Qs9c: 0.950409055,
Qs9d: 0.950409055,
Qs9h: 0.950409055,
2d2c: 0.94668591,
2h2c: 0.94668591,
2h2d: 0.94668591,
2s2c: 0.94668591,
2s2d: 0.94668591,
2s2h: 0.94668591,
Kc4c: 0.942627072,
Kd4d: 0.942627072,
Kh4h: 0.942627072,
Ks4s: 0.942627072,
Jc3c: 0.942230344,
Jd3d: 0.942230344,
Jh3h: 0.942230344,
Js3s: 0.942230344,
7c5c: 0.938140988,
7d5d: 0.938140988,
7h5h: 0.938140988,
7s5s: 0.938140988,
Kc6c: 0.937500119,
Kd6d: 0.937500119,
Kh6h: 0.937500119,
Ks6s: 0.937500119,
Jc7c: 0.934753537,
Jd7d: 0.934753537,
Jh7h: 0.934753537,
Js7s: 0.934753537,
Ac4c: 0.933410764,
Ad4d: 0.933410764,
Ah4h: 0.933410764,
As4s: 0.933410764,
QcTd: 0.930481076,
QcTh: 0.930481076,
QcTs: 0.930481076,
QdTc: 0.930481076,
QdTh: 0.930481076,
QdTs: 0.930481076,
QhTc: 0.930481076,
QhTd: 0.930481076,
QhTs: 0.930481076,
QsTc: 0.930481076,
QsTd: 0.930481076,
QsTh: 0.930481076,
Kc9d: 0.929199338,
Kc9h: 0.929199338,
Kc9s: 0.929199338,
Kd9c: 0.929199338,
Kd9h: 0.929199338,
Kd9s: 0.929199338,
Kh9c: 0.929199338,
Kh9d: 0.929199338,
Kh9s: 0.929199338,
Ks9c: 0.929199338,
Ks9d: 0.929199338,
Ks9h: 0.929199338,
6d6c: 0.92401135,
6h6c: 0.92401135,
6h6d: 0.92401135,
6s6c: 0.92401135,
6s6d: 0.92401135,
6s6h: 0.92401135,
8c7d: 0.918884397,
8c7h: 0.918884397,
8c7s: 0.918884397,
8d7c: 0.918884397,
8d7h: 0.918884397,
8d7s: 0.918884397,
8h7c: 0.918884397,
8h7d: 0.918884397,
8h7s: 0.918884397,
8s7c: 0.918884397,
8s7d: 0.918884397,
8s7h: 0.918884397,
Tc9d: 0.917114377,
Tc9h: 0.917114377,
Tc9s: 0.917114377,
Td9c: 0.917114377,
Td9h: 0.917114377,
Td9s: 0.917114377,
Th9c: 0.917114377,
Th9d: 0.917114377,
Th9s: 0.917114377,
Ts9c: 0.917114377,
Ts9d: 0.917114377,
Ts9h: 0.917114377,
Tc6c: 0.914734006,
Td6d: 0.914734006,
Th6h: 0.914734006,
Ts6s: 0.914734006,
5d5c: 0.905883908,
5h5c: 0.905883908,
5h5d: 0.905883908,
5s5c: 0.905883908,
5s5d: 0.905883908,
5s5h: 0.905883908,
KcTd: 0.897033811,
KcTh: 0.897033811,
KcTs: 0.897033811,
KdTc: 0.897033811,
KdTh: 0.897033811,
KdTs: 0.897033811,
KhTc: 0.897033811,
KhTd: 0.897033811,
KhTs: 0.897033811,
KsTc: 0.897033811,
KsTd: 0.897033811,
KsTh: 0.897033811,
Kc7c: 0.89691174,
Kd7d: 0.89691174,
Kh7h: 0.89691174,
Ks7s: 0.89691174,
Tc7c: 0.896362424,
Td7d: 0.896362424,
Th7h: 0.896362424,
Ts7s: 0.896362424,
7c6c: 0.894470334,
7d6d: 0.894470334,
7h6h: 0.894470334,
7s6s: 0.894470334,
Qc7c: 0.892150998,
Qd7d: 0.892150998,
Qh7h: 0.892150998,
Qs7s: 0.892150998,
Kc8d: 0.891174436,
Kc8h: 0.891174436,
Kc8s: 0.891174436,
Kd8c: 0.891174436,
Kd8h: 0.891174436,
Kd8s: 0.891174436,
Kh8c: 0.891174436,
Kh8d: 0.891174436,
Kh8s: 0.891174436,
Ks8c: 0.891174436,
Ks8d: 0.891174436,
Ks8h: 0.891174436,
Qc8c: 0.8754884,
Qd8d: 0.8754884,
Qh8h: 0.8754884,
Qs8s: 0.8754884,
5c3c: 0.873413205,
5d3d: 0.873413205,
5h3h: 0.873413205,
5s3s: 0.873413205,
KcJd: 0.870605588,
KcJh: 0.870605588,
KcJs: 0.870605588,
KdJc: 0.870605588,
KdJh: 0.870605588,
KdJs: 0.870605588,
KhJc: 0.870605588,
KhJd: 0.870605588,
KhJs: 0.870605588,
KsJc: 0.870605588,
KsJd: 0.870605588,
KsJh: 0.870605588,
9c7c: 0.866943479,
9d7d: 0.866943479,
9h7h: 0.866943479,
9s7s: 0.866943479,
Ac3c: 0.865356565,
Ad3d: 0.865356565,
Ah3h: 0.865356565,
As3s: 0.865356565,
AcTd: 0.859130979,
AcTh: 0.859130979,
AcTs: 0.859130979,
AdTc: 0.859130979,
AdTh: 0.859130979,
AdTs: 0.859130979,
AhTc: 0.859130979,
AhTd: 0.859130979,
AhTs: 0.859130979,
AsTc: 0.859130979,
AsTd: 0.859130979,
AsTh: 0.859130979,
Jc5c: 0.846191525,
Jd5d: 0.846191525,
Jh5h: 0.846191525,
Js5s: 0.846191525,
QcJd: 0.837036252,
QcJh: 0.837036252,
QcJs: 0.837036252,
QdJc: 0.837036252,
QdJh: 0.837036252,
QdJs: 0.837036252,
QhJc: 0.837036252,
QhJd: 0.837036252,
QhJs: 0.837036252,
QsJc: 0.837036252,
QsJd: 0.837036252,
QsJh: 0.837036252,
Jc6c: 0.829345822,
Jd6d: 0.829345822,
Jh6h: 0.829345822,
Js6s: 0.829345822,
4c3c: 0.825073361,
4d3d: 0.825073361,
4h3h: 0.825073361,
4s3s: 0.825073361,
Tc8c: 0.813720822,
Td8d: 0.813720822,
Th8h: 0.813720822,
Ts8s: 0.813720822,
6c4c: 0.8051759,
6d4d: 0.8051759,
6h4h: 0.8051759,
6s4s: 0.8051759,
JcTd: 0.796142697,
JcTh: 0.796142697,
JcTs: 0.796142697,
JdTc: 0.796142697,
JdTh: 0.796142697,
JdTs: 0.796142697,
JhTc: 0.796142697,
JhTd: 0.796142697,
JhTs: 0.796142697,
JsTc: 0.796142697,
JsTd: 0.796142697,
JsTh: 0.796142697,
Kc5c: 0.795288205,
Kd5d: 0.795288205,
Kh5h: 0.795288205,
Ks5s: 0.795288205,
Qc9c: 0.784546018,
Qd9d: 0.784546018,
Qh9h: 0.784546018,
Qs9s: 0.784546018,
8c6c: 0.780273557,
8d6d: 0.780273557,
8h6h: 0.780273557,
8s6s: 0.780273557,
8d8c: 0.761230588,
8h8c: 0.761230588,
8h8d: 0.761230588,
8s8c: 0.761230588,
8s8d: 0.761230588,
8s8h: 0.761230588,
Ac5c: 0.744140744,
Ad5d: 0.744140744,
Ah5h: 0.744140744,
As5s: 0.744140744,
6c5c: 0.741943479,
6d5d: 0.741943479,
6h5h: 0.741943479,
6s5s: 0.741943479,
9c8c: 0.73461926,
9d8d: 0.73461926,
9h8h: 0.73461926,
9s8s: 0.73461926,
9c6c: 0.734130979,
9d6d: 0.734130979,
9h6h: 0.734130979,
9s6s: 0.734130979,
7d7c: 0.731933713,
7h7c: 0.731933713,
7h7d: 0.731933713,
7s7c: 0.731933713,
7s7d: 0.731933713,
7s7h: 0.731933713,
Jc8c: 0.721191525,
Jd8d: 0.721191525,
Jh8h: 0.721191525,
Js8s: 0.721191525,
Ac7c: 0.711670041,
Ad7d: 0.711670041,
Ah7h: 0.711670041,
As7s: 0.711670041,
5c4c: 0.689209104,
5d4d: 0.689209104,
5h4h: 0.689209104,
5s4s: 0.689209104,
KcQd: 0.672851682,
KcQh: 0.672851682,
KcQs: 0.672851682,
KdQc: 0.672851682,
KdQh: 0.672851682,
KdQs: 0.672851682,
KhQc: 0.672851682,
KhQd: 0.672851682,
KhQs: 0.672851682,
KsQc: 0.672851682,
KsQd: 0.672851682,
KsQh: 0.672851682,
Kc8c: 0.618408322,
Kd8d: 0.618408322,
Kh8h: 0.618408322,
Ks8s: 0.618408322,
4c2c: 0.603759885,
4d2d: 0.603759885,
4h2h: 0.603759885,
4s2s: 0.603759885,
AcJd: 0.599121213,
AcJh: 0.599121213,
AcJs: 0.599121213,
AdJc: 0.599121213,
AdJh: 0.599121213,
AdJs: 0.599121213,
AhJc: 0.599121213,
AhJd: 0.599121213,
AhJs: 0.599121213,
AsJc: 0.599121213,
AsJd: 0.599121213,
AsJh: 0.599121213,
Ac9c: 0.593261838,
Ad9d: 0.593261838,
Ah9h: 0.593261838,
As9s: 0.593261838,
Ac8c: 0.568115354,
Ad8d: 0.568115354,
Ah8h: 0.568115354,
As8s: 0.568115354,
Ac5d: 0.504882932,
Ac5h: 0.504882932,
Ac5s: 0.504882932,
Ad5c: 0.504882932,
Ad5h: 0.504882932,
Ad5s: 0.504882932,
Ah5c: 0.504882932,
Ah5d: 0.504882932,
Ah5s: 0.504882932,
As5c: 0.504882932,
As5d: 0.504882932,
As5h: 0.504882932,
8c7c: 0.420898438,
8d7d: 0.420898438,
8h7h: 0.420898438,
8s7s: 0.420898438,
Jc9c: 0.403564453,
Jd9d: 0.403564453,
Jh9h: 0.403564453,
Js9s: 0.403564453,
Tc5c: 0.386230469,
Td5d: 0.386230469,
Th5h: 0.386230469,
Ts5s: 0.386230469,
Qc3c: 0.353759766,
Qd3d: 0.353759766,
Qh3h: 0.353759766,
Qs3s: 0.353759766,
9c5c: 0.337646484,
9d5d: 0.337646484,
9h5h: 0.337646484,
9s5s: 0.337646484,
7c4c: 0.333007812,
7d4d: 0.333007812,
7h4h: 0.333007812,
7s4s: 0.333007812,
Tc9c: 0.327148438,
Td9d: 0.327148438,
Th9h: 0.327148438,
Ts9s: 0.327148438,
AcQd: 0.315673828,
AcQh: 0.315673828,
AcQs: 0.315673828,
AdQc: 0.315673828,
AdQh: 0.315673828,
AdQs: 0.315673828,
AhQc: 0.315673828,
AhQd: 0.315673828,
AhQs: 0.315673828,
AsQc: 0.315673828,
AsQd: 0.315673828,
AsQh: 0.315673828,
Ac6d: 0.313232422,
Ac6h: 0.313232422,
Ac6s: 0.313232422,
Ad6c: 0.313232422,
Ad6h: 0.313232422,
Ad6s: 0.313232422,
Ah6c: 0.313232422,
Ah6d: 0.313232422,
Ah6s: 0.313232422,
As6c: 0.313232422,
As6d: 0.313232422,
As6h: 0.313232422,
Kc9c: 0.303955078,
Kd9d: 0.303955078,
Kh9h: 0.303955078,
Ks9s: 0.303955078,
QcTc: 0.289794922,
QdTd: 0.289794922,
QhTh: 0.289794922,
QsTs: 0.289794922,
JcTc: 0.205566406,
JdTd: 0.205566406,
JhTh: 0.205566406,
JsTs: 0.205566406,
Qc4c: 0.164916992,
Qd4d: 0.164916992,
Qh4h: 0.164916992,
Qs4s: 0.164916992,
8c6d: 0.162353516,
8c6h: 0.162353516,
8c6s: 0.162353516,
8d6c: 0.162353516,
8d6h: 0.162353516,
8d6s: 0.162353516,
8h6c: 0.162353516,
8h6d: 0.162353516,
8h6s: 0.162353516,
8s6c: 0.162353516,
8s6d: 0.162353516,
8s6h: 0.162353516,
QcJc: 0.150146484,
QdJd: 0.150146484,
QhJh: 0.150146484,
QsJs: 0.150146484,
9d9c: 0.103759766,
9h9c: 0.103759766,
9h9d: 0.103759766,
9s9c: 0.103759766,
9s9d: 0.103759766,
9s9h: 0.103759766,
KcJc: 0.092590332,
KdJd: 0.092590332,
KhJh: 0.092590332,
KsJs: 0.092590332,
KcTc: 0.0884399414,
KdTd: 0.0884399414,
KhTh: 0.0884399414,
KsTs: 0.0884399414,
Ac3d: 0.0855102539,
Ac3h: 0.0855102539,
Ac3s: 0.0855102539,
Ad3c: 0.0855102539,
Ad3h: 0.0855102539,
Ad3s: 0.0855102539,
Ah3c: 0.0855102539,
Ah3d: 0.0855102539,
Ah3s: 0.0855102539,
As3c: 0.0855102539,
As3d: 0.0855102539,
As3h: 0.0855102539,
AcTc: 0.0731201172,
AdTd: 0.0731201172,
AhTh: 0.0731201172,
AsTs: 0.0731201172,
KcQc: 0.0639038086,
KdQd: 0.0639038086,
KhQh: 0.0639038086,
KsQs: 0.0639038086,
9c8d: 0.0599365234,
9c8h: 0.0599365234,
9c8s: 0.0599365234,
9d8c: 0.0599365234,
9d8h: 0.0599365234,
9d8s: 0.0599365234,
9h8c: 0.0599365234,
9h8d: 0.0599365234,
9h8s: 0.0599365234,
9s8c: 0.0599365234,
9s8d: 0.0599365234,
9s8h: 0.0599365234,
AcJc: 0.0291290283,
AdJd: 0.0291290283,
AhJh: 0.0291290283,
AsJs: 0.0291290283,
Kc7d: 0.0231323242,
Kc7h: 0.0231323242,
Kc7s: 0.0231323242,
Kd7c: 0.0231323242,
Kd7h: 0.0231323242,
Kd7s: 0.0231323242,
Kh7c: 0.0231323242,
Kh7d: 0.0231323242,
Kh7s: 0.0231323242,
Ks7c: 0.0231323242,
Ks7d: 0.0231323242,
Ks7h: 0.0231323242,
Qc8d: 0.0201721191,
Qc8h: 0.0201721191,
Qc8s: 0.0201721191,
Qd8c: 0.0201721191,
Qd8h: 0.0201721191,
Qd8s: 0.0201721191,
Qh8c: 0.0201721191,
Qh8d: 0.0201721191,
Qh8s: 0.0201721191,
Qs8c: 0.0201721191,
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On July 05 2018 10:06 longple wrote: Probably pushing it a bit to hard, but I think I like both either going small bet (bit wider) or polerizeing quite hard with tons of checking+sizeing up.

if the ranges aren't too diff than what I expect you can have both
your range crushes this board very hard

Looked at it in pio and talked to stroggoz on skypes, QT seems to wide

indeed pio chooses a overbet or check strategy on turn, dosnt use the 150-1% sizes at all.

dosnt include QT hardly ever in the turnrange, and the EV of checking it on the river is substantially higher then jamming it after the low freq turnbet.
It values low bottompairblockers and low gutshots like 3x or 2x higher then the broadway stratighdraws for then turnoverbet.

That was monkersolvers ranges for these preflopactions, and not ours at all tho

I miss poker

Yeh, discussions like these sometime make me feel like going back as well

On July 05 2018 12:59 longple wrote: Looked at it in pio and talked to stroggoz on skypes, QT seems to wide indeed pio chooses a overbet or check strategy on turn, dosnt use the 150-1% sizes at all. dosnt include QT hardly ever in the turnrange, and the EV of checking it on the river is substantially higher then jamming it after the low freq turnbet. It values low bottompairblockers and low gutshots like 3x or 2x higher then the broadway stratighdraws for then turnoverbet. That was monkersolvers ranges for these preflopactions, and not ours at all tho

so 150%+? interesting


however if you are not overbetting those 2x 3x and only broadways which is very common you are going to shove that turn with Tx super often but that is just a reflection of a poorly constructed turn range

On July 06 2018 06:43 Baalim wrote: Show nested quote + On July 05 2018 12:59 longple wrote: Looked at it in pio and talked to stroggoz on skypes, QT seems to wide indeed pio chooses a overbet or check strategy on turn, dosnt use the 150-1% sizes at all. dosnt include QT hardly ever in the turnrange, and the EV of checking it on the river is substantially higher then jamming it after the low freq turnbet. It values low bottompairblockers and low gutshots like 3x or 2x higher then the broadway stratighdraws for then turnoverbet. That was monkersolvers ranges for these preflopactions, and not ours at all tho so 150%+? interesting however if you are not overbetting those 2x 3x and only broadways which is very common you are going to shove that turn with Tx super often but that is just a reflection of a poorly constructed turn range

I shouldnt say never 150-1% rather 75-1%, I gave it 25% 75% and 150% and it only used the 150% size.

Good points, I dont have as many 2x 3x 4x 5x hands here either compared to monker, it raises the SB limp so all over the place, I mean it raises 33% of 93o and 92o as an example preflop vs the limp.

Im much more linear even tho I try to poler a bit similair to the oldschool HU OOP 3bet ranges

Yeah this made me miss poker as well, good stuff guys

my friend and i went over this alot, been having some issues in same spots, feel like we gotta just bet 40-75% OTR or XX back enuf when he calls this overbet ott hes just too narrow in general these days .. atleast vs myself and evade..

been jammin these too much and getting called off by weird ass shit recently

Could you please elaborate on why do you (and PIO) think overbetting this turn is better than betting a more standard size?

villian calls with a lot of ace high on flop, so when you betting into their range on turn they have enough Ax in their range so that you should be value betting only Strong Ax and better, along side this fact, they don't have too many 2pair+ in their range. So the strategy that makes sense on turn is to split between checking and overbetting.

Thanks!

On July 05 2018 10:47 Stroggoz wrote: if it helps i've simmed for 2.5x/limp on SB: This is what sb defends vs raise to 35 vs limp :

should be at least 3x for the sb open no? more like 3.5x

not sure how much it would change the sim though

how does monker stack up to pio? better for ring games?

On July 17 2018 08:58 traxamillion wrote: Show nested quote + On July 05 2018 10:47 Stroggoz wrote: if it helps i've simmed for 2.5x/limp on SB: This is what sb defends vs raise to 35 vs limp : should be at least 3x for the sb open no? more like 3.5x not sure how much it would change the sim though

pio prefers 2.5x/limp over 3x/limp or 3.5x/limp. I ran a sim with 2.5x/3x/3.5x to test this.

no shit? that is a surprise to me. i guess the bigger size is just good with antes then

yep. It pays to run those sorts of tests before fixing your preflop strategy, pio is full of surprises.