V A L U E T O W N

i really don't like his call at all, that 8s is one of the worst cards to have here as a bluffcatcher

. is 1/4 size on flop a thing in hu? in 6max we go 1/2 pot on flop for this texture, often.

some people do for the 100% freq boards, but I havent simmed much I guess they just trying to exploit overfolds which aint happening vs me lol

for the solver this is a mixed board with lots of diff sizes

its fine to call with as played, assumeing he uses a bigger size on flop for the most part too, if he plays super wide w 25% then its a bit different but cant imagine a HUreg these days useing purely 25% on this flop.

Tx that get there this way just gotta call most of the time, better to call with then the 99-77 that get there this way and some of the 6x that also blocks the 87s type bluffs but blocks less value (like QT). But suppose the 6xs gotta call sometimes too. Will have a pretty narrow range OOP getting to the river this way. like some Tx 6x, pockets, a tiny bit of Ax flushdraws+AJAK.

I prefer simplifying these flops HU and going ~66%-pot or check as 3bettor.

nobody uses 66% HU nowadays for cb 3bp
he should be calling with AT KT TJ, even 65 64 all seem better calls, blocking the 8 is baaad

Fair enough on 66, lets just say big size instead of 66-100

how would he get there with AT KT TJ at any kind of freq? Unless u think he is one of those 25% range kinda regs u mentioned somehwere.

Then ill buy it but that means he plays flop pretty shitty, T8s atleast gets there giving him the 25% option and a mixx on flop ^^

why would he play AT KT JT any diff than T8? i dont see him taking a diff line just coz of that kicker difference. also the 8s is particularly bad, it is possibly THE worst card to call with as a bluffcatcher. altho this hand itself is still better to call with than 77-99 since those are double blockers, but its basically the next worst thing

because they are better hands and if he mixxes this board he "should" size up flop with those quite often

have worked quite a bit HU on these boards past months since I got alot of HU 5/10-10/20 action lately from a few ringgameregs and those are patterns, better hands bet bigger and more often in these spots, so kicker does matter.

based on how I play this board I wouldnt use 25% atall just too messy. Got curious from this discussion especially when drone thought T8 shouldnt call aswell so ran a simplified sim to check it out instead of _just_ speculating. Obv AT KT is better hands to call with but atleast I wouldnt get to river very often playing them like this and who knows what range he gets to river with here ^^

Gave him a big potsize and 25% to give him a chance to play a quite radical mixx. (Since we know he played 25% w T8s here)

Flop:

https://gyazo.com/9cdb5ab895b15cd2cb9af821cf2fe8ae

River after as played in hand:

https://gyazo.com/e87fb6ed440d7c1c34753e09a9319b13

Obv still speculation since we dont know how he plays here, drone probably has a better take, pretty narrow riverrange Tx 6x just have to call at a resonable freq. But ye, few combos. Reality he probably 25% flop closer to some kind of range-rangeshit :D

Edit:

Takeaways from me at this point, talking riverbluffcatching down this line dosnt seem to be much of a thing. Size up strong Tx+ more

I still assume hes pretty good if he still is playing 5/10+ HU on stars so maybe he nailed it. I dont wanna give up that easily! Think its fine to bluffcatch with a ten here when he does take this line if he mixxes.

On October 18 2019 15:09 fira wrote: why would he play AT KT JT any diff than T8? i dont see him taking a diff line just coz of that kicker difference.

Because it's completely standard, kinda like asking why would people use blockers, lol. There is more value from bigger bet size with a higher kicker, bigger sizes are weighted more value towards pairs and less from floats. with small size with T8 u get mix value from weaker pairs only, and there are more floats to get value from.

not sure what kind of sizing strategies are meta for this texture in hu, but i definitely would expect the way people split sizings that the tree gets weighted more and more towards weaker Tx by the river from action. Considering stronger Tx would be more likely to barrel turn And use bigger sizes on flop. This kind've thinking is pretty crucial for 5/10+ regs to be winning players. So in short i agree with longple, although i'm not good at hu and don't really understand the ranges there well, except for basic 100bb preflop.

it's standard to play differently with T8 vs KT here? that's new to me. maybe i am underestimating the difference between hands like T8 and KT
they don't seem hugely different to me (aside from T8 blocking a straight draw) but i guess realistically speaking there aren't that many hands stronger than T8 in general so the few points of kicker strength actually matters more than i'm giving it credit? idk

anyway i don't use multiple sizings on flops usually, this is a spot where i'm betting around half pot i think, with any hands i decide to bet. not really a fan of the small flop bet tbh as it almost never gets folds and is generally a pot-builder bet, but pot isn't really big enough for that imo.

i guess what you guys are saying is that T8 would check flop while KT would bet big? or T8 would bet smaller or KT would bet turn or something like that. and it'd get to a point on the river where T8 is one of the best possible holdings in our range and we'd be forced to call with it. i guess i could see that being reasonable with this SPR. still i'd really want to avoid bluffcatching with the 8s if possible

It's something that is immediately obvious when studying sims, different kickers make a big difference, kinda like how cbet frequencies with overpairs become higher as they get weaker on flops, as they need more protection, and AA/KK need less protection and also are getting less value from A/K high.

On October 18 2019 15:26 longple wrote: because they are better hands and if he mixxes this board he "should" size up flop with those quite often have worked quite a bit HU on these boards past months since I got alot of HU 5/10-10/20 action lately from a few ringgameregs and those are patterns, better hands bet bigger and more often in these spots, so kicker does matter. based on how I play this board I wouldnt use 25% atall just too messy. Got curious from this discussion especially when drone thought T8 shouldnt call aswell so ran a simplified sim to check it out instead of _just_ speculating. Obv AT KT is better hands to call with but atleast I wouldnt get to river very often playing them like this and who knows what range he gets to river with here ^^ Gave him a big potsize and 25% to give him a chance to play a quite radical mixx. (Since we know he played 25% w T8s here) Flop: https://gyazo.com/9cdb5ab895b15cd2cb9af821cf2fe8ae River after as played in hand: https://gyazo.com/e87fb6ed440d7c1c34753e09a9319b13 Obv still speculation since we dont know how he plays here, drone probably has a better take, pretty narrow riverrange Tx 6x just have to call at a resonable freq. But ye, few combos. Reality he probably 25% flop closer to some kind of range-rangeshit :D Edit: Takeaways from me at this point, talking riverbluffcatching down this line dosnt seem to be much of a thing. Size up strong Tx+ more I still assume hes pretty good if he still is playing 5/10+ HU on stars so maybe he nailed it. I dont wanna give up that easily! Think its fine to bluffcatch with a ten here when he does take this line if he mixxes.

normalize those ranges on the river its so hard to see