Pot is 50$ on the river

What hands should he be doing this ?

I don't know if I have answers but I have questions.

Can he have like Ah5x? Ah4x? He probably shouldn't have these hands.

I bet he has the 56hh and a lot of gappers. I think that is why I would bet flop and turn big. As played I feel like most at small stakes get a bit scared in big pots like this but probability wise maybe this guy doesn't?

That seems like a big overbet. There is 53 in there on the river and he is betting the ole 132.66.

He's going to play the AhTs like this?

He just might. He just might. AhTs, AhTc, AhTd.

Ah5h, Ah6h, Ah7h, Ah8h, Ah9h, AhTh, AhQh, some AhKh. But he might not play all these hands that way.

You gotta call 132.66 to win 185.66. You gotta be right 71% is that right? I forget how to do math.

There's gotta be other stuff he bluffs with?

But, we haven't considered Kh6h+ or if he plays it like this.

There's more hands in there too surely I am just running out of steam.

Thank you for posting this. Interesting hand for me.

I am overly tired.

You block AhQh and Ah9h..... and most AhKh 4-bets. @100 bbs PiO 4bets 100%.

Hard 2 know.

1 different approach you can take in a bluffcatch spot like this is the "mass data" approach where u datamine millions of hands to see what does this overbet mean when fish does it and when a reg does it.

On May 20 2022 04:01 RiKD wrote: I don't know if I have answers but I have questions. Can he have like Ah5x? Ah4x? He probably shouldn't have these hands. I bet he has the 56hh and a lot of gappers. I think that is why I would bet flop and turn big. As played I feel like most at small stakes get a bit scared in big pots like this but probability wise maybe this guy doesn't? That seems like a big overbet. There is 53 in there on the river and he is betting the ole 132.66. He's going to play the AhTs like this? He just might. He just might. AhTs, AhTc, AhTd. Ah5h, Ah6h, Ah7h, Ah8h, Ah9h, AhTh, AhQh, some AhKh. But he might not play all these hands that way. You gotta call 132.66 to win 185.66. You gotta be right 71% is that right? I forget how to do math. There's gotta be other stuff he bluffs with? But, we haven't considered Kh6h+ or if he plays it like this. There's more hands in there too surely I am just running out of steam. Thank you for posting this. Interesting hand for me.

Your understanding of pot odds and mdf is incorrect. Correcting stuff like this is more important than trying 2 act cool and say "pio does this or that".

you did forget how to do math rikd. it's calling ~100 to win ~260. Excluding rake, you never need more than 50% to warrant a call.

I had a response but guess it didn't go through. I think as played we just close our eyes and call.
But as far as flop sizing goes, I believe this is a WA/WB type spot on the flop where villain has significantly more suited hands in his range than offsuit. So given that, 1/3rd psb on the flop is prob better. Turn then becomes something like 90-125% psb imo

So, we need to have the best hand 38.5%?

What else is he bluffing besides the AhTx? There are only 3 combos of that versus many combos of AhXh, KhXh. And, maybe it does not have to be said I don't see any worse hands value betting this spot. Th9h is a crazy shove on river. If he can have some of the worse KhXh maybe he can also have 3 combos of Ah8x. We have to find more bluffs if this is going to be a call. (I'm not saying this isn't possible). Maybe he has KhTx or JxTh. But, we need more bluff combos or else it's a fold.

I mean this is pretty damn near the top of our range. Just because we cant theoretically find enough bluffs in villains range based on how we perceive a hand should be played, does not equate to villain not having enough bluffs in this spot, or villain doesnt do this with enough value hands that we beat. Like who knows what hes thinking?

I'm just devil's advocate here.

There is definitely the issue of Qh9h being at the VERY top of our range and what that means. Remember I forgot how to calculate pot odds. I had to look up what mdf means. I'm just trying to learn.

Another question is do we shove river here instead of chk with Kh5h?

Lol cmon if u guys want to actually try to piece through the hand op needs to provide info at least if he is reg or fish or whatever. Y ru guys trying to piece together wtf is going on with 0 info given on villain thats pretty huge in this hand.

On May 21 2022 08:46 hiems wrote: Lol cmon if u guys want to actually try to piece through the hand op needs to provide info at least if he is reg or fish or whatever. Y ru guys trying to piece together wtf is going on with 0 info given on villain thats pretty huge in this hand.

Pretty sure GTO means playing your hand/your range of hands without knowing if the other player is reg, fish, loose, aggro, or a cat. Not saying you shouldn't deviate/exploit from there as per your reads but the starting point is theory based

On May 22 2022 13:06 gawdawaful wrote: Show nested quote + On May 21 2022 08:46 hiems wrote: Lol cmon if u guys want to actually try to piece through the hand op needs to provide info at least if he is reg or fish or whatever. Y ru guys trying to piece together wtf is going on with 0 info given on villain thats pretty huge in this hand. Pretty sure GTO means playing your hand/your range of hands without knowing if the other player is reg, fish, loose, aggro, or a cat. Not saying you shouldn't deviate/exploit from there as per your reads but the starting point is theory based

Ya thats gto.

Agre that can be a starting point but idk there are spots where gto isn't great. This spot might be one of them cause I don't think alot of ppl are balanced here. River spots u can easily data mine so if u are a person that isn't lazy (like me) I feel like this is a better approach here and should go along side by side with gto here with the caveat that this isn't a high free spot but just in theory thats probably a better approach.

The way this hand played tho agree our hand is insanely strong.

I mean you could be right in that this is a spot where people underbluff at these stakes. I dont play a lot of cash so I'm not sure

I will admit that hiems is right as far as no reads. It's possible he shows up with the 5d6d or Td9d or even the KdTd. He may also never bluff this spot.

You have no read there so I would say he can bluff sometimes there. I would call, what does GTO says?

Sad thing is that I learned that people actually do underbluff alot and I made alot of wrong calls. I would pretty much not fold in a 3b pot tho(I think there are slightly more bluff), if it's a setup I think they get my monies.

Result?

On May 22 2022 23:35 RiKD wrote: I will admit that hiems is right as far as no reads. It's possible he shows up with the 5d6d or Td9d or even the KdTd. He may also never bluff this spot.

Lol @ "I will admit"

U need ppl to hold ur hand like a baby to even get on ignition...u don't even know pot odds lol y do u think u r some poker champ

I am not convinced it was a good idea to put money on Ignition.

I know pot odds I just made a mistake.

I don't think I am some poker champ. I am grinding 10 NL.

---------------------

--------------------

On May 23 2022 15:41 hiems wrote: Show nested quote + On May 22 2022 23:35 RiKD wrote: I will admit that hiems is right as far as no reads. It's possible he shows up with the 5d6d or Td9d or even the KdTd. He may also never bluff this spot. Lol @ "I will admit" U need ppl to hold ur hand like a baby to even get on ignition...u don't even know pot odds lol y do u think u r some poker champ

This is what I mean about you, by whatever my choice of verbiage was. Take that how you will

On May 24 2022 23:08 RiKD wrote: I am not convinced it was a good idea to put money on Ignition. I know pot odds I just made a mistake. I don't think I am some poker champ. I am grinding 10 NL.

Hey at least you didn't move to Pennsylvania to come to the same conclusion right?

On May 25 2022 00:23 lostaccount wrote: It’s not a good idea to think u gonna make 25-35$ an hour in poker anymore. If you want to win push ups then it’s a good idea. Rikd go play a 20-30$ tournament once in awhile for some fun but to grind cash game is a bad idea. Poker is dead man

Also, $25-$35/hr isn't the same as $25-$35 a hour 10-15 years ago now too...

On May 25 2022 04:35 gawdawaful wrote: Show nested quote + On May 23 2022 15:41 hiems wrote:   On May 22 2022 23:35 RiKD wrote: I will admit that hiems is right as far as no reads. It's possible he shows up with the 5d6d or Td9d or even the KdTd. He may also never bluff this spot. Lol @ "I will admit" U need ppl to hold ur hand like a baby to even get on ignition...u don't even know pot odds lol y do u think u r some poker champ This is what I mean about you, by whatever my choice of verbiage was. Take that how you will   On May 24 2022 23:08 RiKD wrote: I am not convinced it was a good idea to put money on Ignition. I know pot odds I just made a mistake. I don't think I am some poker champ. I am grinding 10 NL. Hey at least you didn't move to Pennsylvania to come to the same conclusion right?   On May 25 2022 00:23 lostaccount wrote: It’s not a good idea to think u gonna make 25-35$ an hour in poker anymore. If you want to win push ups then it’s a good idea. Rikd go play a 20-30$ tournament once in awhile for some fun but to grind cash game is a bad idea. Poker is dead man Also, $25-$35/hr isn't the same as $25-$35 a hour 10-15 years ago now too...

Me and rikd have a history kind of like skeletor vs he-man. While u r probably aware of some of it its hard to be immersed in this saga as the ppl in it.

Rikd and his cronie "the dumb loco" has long thrown shade at my poker so yea when rikd comes in here not knowing pot odds and leading with "i will admit hiems" i thought i would add some heat 2 my response and that makes sense to me whether it's fair or not

LoCo!!! Locolo!!

-------------------------------

On May 25 2022 12:59 lostaccount wrote: Fair enough but to be also fair u throw shades for no reasons too

WHEN

-----------------------

On May 25 2022 17:27 lostaccount wrote: to me. disrespect me when you have a photographic memory i dont forget but I forgive

U r a very forgiving man.

On May 25 2022 00:23 lostaccount wrote: It’s not a good idea to think u gonna make 25-35$ an hour in poker anymore. If you want to win push ups then it’s a good idea. Rikd go play a 20-30$ tournament once in awhile for some fun but to grind cash game is a bad idea. Poker is dead man

No, I like the cash games. More fun for me.

On May 25 2022 00:24 lostaccount wrote: Like I said if u want a better life, u can do so many other things to be happier

Poker is immersive and there is something on the line. As much as I enjoyed Limbo and Inside it's kind of trial and die but there isn't anything really on the line unless I am going for a no death speed run. I am going to die in poker (make -ev plays). The crazy thing is at the table I won't even really know unless I do work away from the table which I also find fun. Going into the lab and finding optimal plays at each decision. No limit is fun because the betting is capped only by the limitations of your stack at the table. It's a fascinating game and I am someone who enjoys games.

On May 25 2022 04:35 gawdawaful wrote: Show nested quote + On May 23 2022 15:41 hiems wrote:   On May 22 2022 23:35 RiKD wrote: I will admit that hiems is right as far as no reads. It's possible he shows up with the 5d6d or Td9d or even the KdTd. He may also never bluff this spot. Lol @ "I will admit" U need ppl to hold ur hand like a baby to even get on ignition...u don't even know pot odds lol y do u think u r some poker champ This is what I mean about you, by whatever my choice of verbiage was. Take that how you will   On May 24 2022 23:08 RiKD wrote: I am not convinced it was a good idea to put money on Ignition. I know pot odds I just made a mistake. I don't think I am some poker champ. I am grinding 10 NL. Hey at least you didn't move to Pennsylvania to come to the same conclusion right?   On May 25 2022 00:23 lostaccount wrote: It’s not a good idea to think u gonna make 25-35$ an hour in poker anymore. If you want to win push ups then it’s a good idea. Rikd go play a 20-30$ tournament once in awhile for some fun but to grind cash game is a bad idea. Poker is dead man Also, $25-$35/hr isn't the same as $25-$35 a hour 10-15 years ago now too...

I would be more excited about poker if I lived in PA and had access to PokerStars. Ignition has a lot of issues.

On May 25 2022 12:02 hiems wrote: Show nested quote + On May 25 2022 04:35 gawdawaful wrote:   On May 23 2022 15:41 hiems wrote:   On May 22 2022 23:35 RiKD wrote: I will admit that hiems is right as far as no reads. It's possible he shows up with the 5d6d or Td9d or even the KdTd. He may also never bluff this spot. Lol @ "I will admit" U need ppl to hold ur hand like a baby to even get on ignition...u don't even know pot odds lol y do u think u r some poker champ This is what I mean about you, by whatever my choice of verbiage was. Take that how you will   On May 24 2022 23:08 RiKD wrote: I am not convinced it was a good idea to put money on Ignition. I know pot odds I just made a mistake. I don't think I am some poker champ. I am grinding 10 NL. Hey at least you didn't move to Pennsylvania to come to the same conclusion right?   On May 25 2022 00:23 lostaccount wrote: It’s not a good idea to think u gonna make 25-35$ an hour in poker anymore. If you want to win push ups then it’s a good idea. Rikd go play a 20-30$ tournament once in awhile for some fun but to grind cash game is a bad idea. Poker is dead man Also, $25-$35/hr isn't the same as $25-$35 a hour 10-15 years ago now too... Me and rikd have a history kind of like skeletor vs he-man. While u r probably aware of some of it its hard to be immersed in this saga as the ppl in it. Rikd and his cronie "the dumb loco" has long thrown shade at my poker so yea when rikd comes in here not knowing pot odds and leading with "i will admit hiems" i thought i would add some heat 2 my response and that makes sense to me whether it's fair or not

Not that it is that difficult for me to admit if you are right I thought I would add that in there to be a little spicy I guess.

I never watched Heman. You are He-man or Skeletor?

Now, that I have put some money online and have been playing some hands I realize how easy it is to catch a poker bug. I don't know if it is the best for you or me to be toiling away playing all these hands piecing them in whenever we can. But, I also wouldn't necessarily classify it as toiling. Just playing when I feel like it is pretty fun. That is something I missed when I was very anti-poker. I am not happy with Ignition but if I were on PokerStars I have a feeling that I would have a better feeling playing. There is also the fact that we will lose probably at least 40% of the time. That is not as fun but if I manage it correctly I'm not really sad about most losing days.

When you make a poker blog you open yourself up to different ideas. I don't think my opinion has changed that much. There are obviously better things we could be doing? But, sometimes there is not much I'd realistically rather be doing than playing poker and I can understand that. My opinion still is that it's very difficult to be a 5ptbb/100 winner at say 200 NL Zoom or 500 NL Zoom with enough hands and that will put you in that $70k - $140k range which is pretty good. I don't want to say it is a pipe dream because with the advent of solvers a lot of hard work away from the tables can reap large rewards but if everyone is proficient at this with the high rake only the poker site wins. It is impossible to study every spot. Mathematically, I don't know what win-rates are possible these days. I know Sauce had a 50k hand sample at 10 BB/100 at 500 NL Zoom in 2021 which I'm not sure if that is different than 10ptbb/100. I am not Sauce though. He was always much better than me at poker.

i guess im skeletor cause u r the obv white guy lol.

-----------------------------------

---------------------------------------

On May 26 2022 18:35 lostaccount wrote: Show nested quote + On May 26 2022 17:22 RiKD wrote:   On May 25 2022 04:35 gawdawaful wrote:   On May 23 2022 15:41 hiems wrote:   On May 22 2022 23:35 RiKD wrote: I will admit that hiems is right as far as no reads. It's possible he shows up with the 5d6d or Td9d or even the KdTd. He may also never bluff this spot. Lol @ "I will admit" U need ppl to hold ur hand like a baby to even get on ignition...u don't even know pot odds lol y do u think u r some poker champ This is what I mean about you, by whatever my choice of verbiage was. Take that how you will   On May 24 2022 23:08 RiKD wrote: I am not convinced it was a good idea to put money on Ignition. I know pot odds I just made a mistake. I don't think I am some poker champ. I am grinding 10 NL. Hey at least you didn't move to Pennsylvania to come to the same conclusion right?   On May 25 2022 00:23 lostaccount wrote: It’s not a good idea to think u gonna make 25-35$ an hour in poker anymore. If you want to win push ups then it’s a good idea. Rikd go play a 20-30$ tournament once in awhile for some fun but to grind cash game is a bad idea. Poker is dead man Also, $25-$35/hr isn't the same as $25-$35 a hour 10-15 years ago now too... I would be more excited about poker if I lived in PA and had access to PokerStars. Ignition has a lot of issues. yea but then u would have to pay rent food etc ur cost of living would be much higher and would u make enough to cover that?

I could write a lot to reply here but the simplest way to look at it is that let's say I crush 10 NL I am still probably only looking at $1,000/month.

I would want a better computer. Best deal would be $1,000. It's possible to get something sick if you know where to look and when.

$5,000 moving costs likely.

6 months living expenses ideal.

It is not a reality.

The reality is that even if I grind up successfully. At some time there will be a point where I am likely losing until I put in enough time in the solver lab. There is a lot I don't know about solvers. There is a lot I don't know about computers. Maybe 50 NL it is worth it to buy a new computer and Pio basic. Maybe that is 25 NL. Maybe that is 100 NL. I don't really know.

If I could make $40,000/yr with out having to super grind hands I would consider it. I'm not sure if that is possible for me. Another thing is what if it's only possible for 1 year? I don't know.

--------------------------------------.

I logged in for the first time in I don't know how many years to comment here. I dont play hold'em so much any more but I can't imagine without the solidest of reads that this hand could ever ever be a fold. Surely people can shove for thinner value or be bluffing or spazzing out especially the way the hands played, we've 3 bet bet 2 streets and now checked river and he's jammed like I think we just have to snap call and like I guess we've played it well... now call? (If we're not gonna bet bet check I think I would like to size bigger two streets so we can comfortably jam river).

I did snap call, he did exactly like i wanted, but after the hand i started to wonder about his play, his range, etc . wanted to have opinions about what his range should be.

45 comments? wtf?

overthink much?

snap call, underrepped, u threw the rope, snap and move on, probably win without looking.

On June 04 2022 00:57 Ryan Neilly wrote: 45 comments? wtf? overthink much? snap call, underrepped, u threw the rope, snap and move on, probably win without looking.

Fair enough.

------------------------------------

wow, so many comments, u are popular Engage.. definitely looks like a re-raise

----------------------------------

Results?

Don't get me wrong I know what you mean some opponents in some spots can only really have better here if they are absolutely never bluffing for whatever reason and some people you can say wouldn't value shove so big with a lower flush etc. So like if some live old nit who is just super careful and is winning a lot and never really bluffs anyway but definitely not if he is 'up for the day' (would just vbet smaller with lower flushes but then again these kind of guys would probably raise smaller flushes on flop or turn.. I think) then yea you think can correctly fold something like this but you have to absolutely know. Don't know if it's possible online it's too easy to shove and too hard to know players well enough and their current state of mind my opinion

But nowhere near enough information in my opinion to make that read and even if it's still so hard. I don't play holdem much at all just my thoughts.

I like how you played the hand though for sure prob value bets almost all hands he calls with and then for sure can turn a bunch of stuff into bluffs. Maybe some people just never spaz now or don't bluff enough but feels like with this action we are beat very rarely coming to the river, so just too little information to fold.

if he bets a different size on the river are we calling or shoving? I think we should definitely shove over a smallish bet but not so sure about the bigger sizes

------------------------------------

On July 06 2022 20:36 lostaccount wrote: im gonna assume n make an ass of u n me that he showed the nuts lol. usually ppl wouldnt post if its a bluff but my read might be wrong 50-50

No, i snap called and i won, he showed up T8hh

You trapped him wp. now call or raise just don't fold