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Handnr: 127299
Submitted by : Narious

Full Tilt Poker Game #1545680497: Table Warren (6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:15:12 ET - 2007/01/06
Seat 1: golfguy22 ($45.25)
Seat 2: AurzaV ($50)
Seat 3: TheEmpire3 ($86.50)
Seat 4: Dr Russ ($31.15)
Seat 5: slyman26 ($58.60)
Seat 6: Disc_Golf ($49.30)
Dr Russ: nh
Disc_Golf has 5 seconds left to act
Disc_Golf posts the small blind of $0.25
golfguy22 posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #5

Holecards
Dealt to AurzaV KdAc
AurzaV raises to $2
TheEmpire3 calls $2
Dr Russ folds
slyman26 calls $2
Disc_Golf calls $1.75
golfguy22 folds

Flop (Pot : $8.5)

   JhKh2d
Disc_Golf checks
AurzaV bets $6
TheEmpire3 raises to $15
slyman26 calls $15
Disc_Golf folds
AurzaV folds

Turn (Pot : $44.5)

   JhKh2d8s
AurzaV adds $8
TheEmpire3 checks
slyman26 checks

River (Pot : $44.5)

   JhKh2d8s5s
TheEmpire3 checks
slyman26 checks

Showdown
TheEmpire3 shows KsQd (a pair of Kings)
slyman26 mucks
TheEmpire3 wins the pot ($42.30) with a pair of Kings

Summary
Total pot $44.50 | Rake $2.20
Board:  JhKh2d8s5s
Seat 1: golfguy22 (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 2: AurzaV folded on the Flop
Seat 3: TheEmpire3 showed KsQd and won ($42.30) with a pair of Kings
Seat 4: Dr Russ didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: slyman26 (button) mucked 4h5h - a pair of Fives
Seat 6: Disc_Golf (small blind) folded on the Flop

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Comments

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Narious   Canada. Jan 06 2007 15:18. Posts 4800

Bad fold?

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Bejamin1   Canada. Jan 06 2007 15:27. Posts 7042

I think this fold is ok. You have TPTK so its unlikely that someone else has KQ. With 1 player 3-betting and another cold-calling behind. It's pretty often that one of them is playing a set. I suppose what makes this pot difficult for you is that your out of a position.

Do you think it might be a good spot to check-raise to get more information about where you stand -- instead of leading out as we would usually do in this position?

Like lets say you check, Empire leads for 6, slyman calls 6 with his flushdraw, and then you raise to $18-20, maybe $20-24? How do you think a set reacts to that bet? A flush draw? I'm curious because your in a spot in this hand that I would also have trouble with. This play would essentially put the pressure on your opponents rather than you, what do you think?

Sorry dude he Jason Bourned me. -Johnny Drama 

Narious   Canada. Jan 06 2007 15:33. Posts 4800

I don't know. I think the major drawback to checkraising is it commits you to the pot. If I checkraise flop than I'm gonna have to go with the hand. I think by leading out I can extract value from draws and weaker one pair hands.


Bejamin1   Canada. Jan 06 2007 15:41. Posts 7042

Does that mean that we have to fold every time we get check-raised? I like your logic for the bet there by the way. The fold may in fact be a necessity because we're out of position.

However about the check-raise committing you to the pot, I don't neccesarily buy that because I don't think anyone is going to shove a hand your beating, after you essentially tell them they have no fold equity with your bet, making it a clear fold if they shove. However your check-raise may be able to buy you a call/checkdown situation when you have the best hand. How you play it from there becomes read dependent, but if your opponent doesn't have the set they are going to have to be afraid that you do.


Sorry dude he Jason Bourned me. -Johnny DramaLast edit: 06/01/2007 15:48

Narious   Canada. Jan 06 2007 15:52. Posts 4800

I think it's far too weak to checkraise commiting half my chips when I'm just going to fold to a push and am really not getting called by any hands that I beat. Basically checkraising here is paying half my stack for info if I'm folding to a push.


Bejamin1   Canada. Jan 06 2007 17:00. Posts 7042

If you check he and KQ bets 6, FD calls 6, theres now 8+6+6 = $20 in the pot. Raising to $20 to win $20 doesn't seem like that bad a play to me. We're not betting for purely information. We're betting to be aggressive with what with think might be the best hand and to win the pot. A set or two pair will almost certainly shove over you in this spot and you'll be able to fold. The flushdraw flat-calls if they aren't too bright or if KQ also calls.

The point is you force a set to identify itself by shoving if they're any good, and you give yourself the best opportunity of winning a decent sized pot with a check-raise here. Not only that but you're pretty much the only player in the pot who can effectively rep AA/KK/JJ or KJ because you were the lead raiser preflop.

I think its better to bet $20 and give yourself a strong chance too win the pot then and there, checking & calling down very cheaply on a nothing turn/river cardif they call behind than it is to constantly bleed $8 in chips when you might be folding the best hand.





Sorry dude he Jason Bourned me. -Johnny Drama 

Narious   Canada. Jan 06 2007 17:11. Posts 4800

Right, but we only know what they have in retrsopect. Many times here both of our opponents will have nothing and fold to our bet or king queen will flat call down and other opponent will fold. Or KJ or a set raises and other opponent moves all in. Or flush flat calls and fold the turn. Sense we can't know we are against KQ and a flush draw before acting we have to take an action that works best across the entire range of hands are opponents may have. Also, I think most of the time KQ flats and doesn't reraise as it did here.
After all, if I allready know my opponents have King Queen and a flush draw and will play as they did than I should just lead and than push against the reraise

Sorry if this responce isn't very good, I'm 8 tabling while I type.


Bejamin1   Canada. Jan 06 2007 17:42. Posts 7042

No the response is fine. Your probably right that KQ often flats this. Its not impossible that KQ folds this though, and we're also fairly certain that KJ and a set of 222 would raise. The point is KQ will almost always take a stab at this point as if to say "Is my hand the best?" the same way you are doing with AK. If they get raised, they'll often give up on the hand, as you did, OOP with AK, and nobody's going to fault you for that it's often the best play. A drawing hand will call along for implied value, a super strong drawing hand might raise.

The point is you get the most information and probably the most value if you check-raise this hand. If KQ decides to call along he's going to pay you off, and he's probably going to be wary of betting into you again giving you a reasonably cheap showdown. If the draw calls they're making a mistake anyway. The other result is that you take the pot right there, or you get shoved on and you dump your hand, rightly assuming your beaten most of the time by the set or two pair and rarely by a multi-draw which is the only hand you would really have odds to call-down against, but not knowing that, you fold.

Being aggressive and putting pressure on your opponents is important. Bleeding $8.00 in chips to me is weak. You're just basically tossing in 20% of your stack with the idea that if anyone shows up with a raise you're going to fold. I think it's good to mix it up, sometimes lead because as you say often KQ will call down or both opponents will fold. However I think the best way to get value out of marginal holdings and draws is probably to check raise this about 50-60% of the time.

It's a $20 bet to win a $20 pot in this situation if we check raise. Sometimes it'll be less than that.

So the scenarios are somewhat as follows:
Win $8.50 with the original $6.00 bet.
Win $Unknown with a check-raise dependent on the bet size of the opponent/whether anyone behind decides to call.
Lose $Unknown but equal/close to the value of the pot when check-raising and folding to a push.

I agree that a lot of the time here both your opponents fold. I just think you fold an extra 12$ when the set pushes/2pair/multidraw pushes but at least then you kind of know for sure thats what you folded against. Also this gives you a way to win a little bit of a bigger pot if they don't have it.



Sorry dude he Jason Bourned me. -Johnny Drama 

Narious   Canada. Jan 06 2007 17:50. Posts 4800

I think one other important consideration is when we check we're very often going to be giving a flush draw a free card.


 

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