Submitted by : Daut

PokerStars Game #4239911499: Hold'em No Limit ($0.50/$1.00) - 2006/03/10 - 14:32:26 (ET)
Table 'Merga IV' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Prento ($90.50 in chips)
Seat 2: Daut44 ($158 in chips)
Seat 3: gs wbill ($106.70 in chips)
Seat 4: reigle9 ($67.10 in chips)
Seat 5: nicoco83 ($77.55 in chips)
Seat 6: Still.iLL ($99 in chips)
Seat 7: krap ($52.25 in chips)
Seat 8: Outsmarted ($132.70 in chips)
Seat 9: tripCCC ($88.80 in chips)
nicoco83: posts small blind $0.50
Still.iLL: posts big blind $1

Holecards
Dealt to Daut44
krap: folds
Outsmarted: folds
tripCCC: folds
Prento: folds
Daut44: raises $3 to $4
gs wbill: folds
reigle9: folds
nicoco83: folds
Still.iLL: calls $3

Flop (Pot : $8.5)

   
Still.iLL: checks
Daut44: checks

Turn (Pot : $8.5)

   
Still.iLL: bets $5
Daut44: calls $5

River (Pot : $18.5)

   
Still.iLL: bets $9
Daut44: calls $9

Showdown
Still.iLL: shows (two pair, Queens and Eights)
Daut44: shows (a flush, Ace high)
Daut44 collected $34.75 from pot

Summary
Total pot $36.50 | Rake $1.75
Board  
Seat 1: Prento folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: Daut44 showed and won ($34.75) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 3: gs wbill folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: reigle9 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: nicoco83 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Still.iLL (big blind) showed and lost with two pair, Queens and Eights
Seat 7: krap folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Outsmarted folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: tripCCC folded before Flop (didn't bet)

minraise river for value?
i didnt think he had 8 or 6, but TT was possible, and it's a relatively scary board, i feel i can raise for value here but it's messy

it depends how often you think he has TT.

if you think its often enough that you wouldn't value bet the river, then you should fold the turn.

if you are calling the turn to hit your flush, you should definitely have plans of value betting when it hits.

What I just said relies on your read that he doesn't have a 6 or 8. I'm assuming you had this read on him before you called the turn, otherwise the river complicates things and nothing I said applies. But, if you believe he doesn't have a 6 or 8, you should have decided to value bet your flush at the river, or fold at the turn

I think I kind of would reraised for value.
One thing though BB, it feels like almost every hand you post you are afraid that ur opponent has something that has you beat, and because of that you play many of your hands quite passive, dont know if iam totally off..

my gut told me he didnt have that
i didnt really know what he had
i suppose it was a possibility which is why i didnt raise
its a sketchy place and i fel uncomfortable raising but i think its correct here (i dont think many people call raises out of the blinds with marginal hands, although i have a really good image lately so it was more possible)

Raise river definitely.

Bet flop most of the time.

On March 10 2006 11:40 Swedishhero wrote: I think I kind of would reraised for value. One thing though BB, it feels like almost every hand you post you are afraid that ur opponent has something that has you beat, and because of that you play many of your hands quite passive, dont know if iam totally off..

i play based on my gut
i play a lot of hands super aggressive that others wouldnt
and i play hands more passive than others would when i feel im behind
sort of illogical, but i think i play most hands optimally
i aim to play the hand perfectly while others aim to find out where they are (i.e. i didnt bet the AA hand cause i didnt need to bet to find out where i was, i just knew)

he his pretty agressive with a strong hand, his river bet is too small for a full. raise!

On March 10 2006 11:44 tomson wrote: Raise river definitely. Bet flop most of the time.

i felt like a check raise was coming (this guy was fed up of me raising him, he played back at me super hard once or twice, but i ran him over some), and i wanted to take the free card

i usually like checking behind with draws, but there is a lot of merit to betting sometimes. i dont know, this felt like a check behind was better cause i feared the check raise

okey cool enough, I agree that one should also trust him self, unless one sucks at it

This poor boy with QQ played this hand so backwards it's confusing... He outplayed himself...

Playing by your gut feelings is fine, but it's still a decision you should have made at the turn, not at the river. We have different styles, but heres how I would have played it.

1. Bet the flop - You can win it right there plenty of times, and if not, your draw is masked.

2. Assuming you check flop, you fold the turn. Not enough implied odds for Tx, and chances are you may be drawing dead. You have to have a really confident read that he has an overpair here, otherwise you have no implied odds. Also, you must understand that if 6s comes and you can't value bet, or if As-Js comes, and you think he just caught top boat, then u can't value bet. It seems to me to be a pretty easy fold on the turn, assuming hes not a crazy LAG or capable of just betting complete crap here. (if this is true, you have 0 implied odds anyways).

3. River is read dependent. If you got him on an overpair or Tx, you can minraise for value. If you're just plain not sure, you shouldn't be in this spot. Given that your in the spot, the smooth call is fine.

On March 10 2006 11:47 BigBalls wrote: Show nested quote + On March 10 2006 11:44 tomson wrote: Raise river definitely. Bet flop most of the time. i felt like a check raise was coming (this guy was fed up of me raising him, he played back at me super hard once or twice, but i ran him over some), and i wanted to take the free card i usually like checking behind with draws, but there is a lot of merit to betting sometimes. i dont know, this felt like a check behind was better cause i feared the check raise

You need to weight the advantages and disadvantages of betting the flop. He may be checkraising here, but if you don't bet the flop, and your draw doesn't hit, you should definitely let it go on the turn. It's just not worth drawing on the turn unless you think hes got a monster (that a flush can still beat). Especially considering that the turn paired the board, you have to pay the price of folding your draw on the turn, simply because you didn't bet the flop for information and masking.

In this particular situation, it looked like the boy was going for a check-raise on the flop, so betting the flop woulda been a disaster. With that said, checking or betting this flop is 50/50 in my mind. There are goods and bads with both plays here, but I might be leaning more towards the check. Heads-up in situations like this, your draw is usually well masked anyways even if you check it. Infact, I think checking masks your hand even more, as semi-bluffing draws when checked to seems to be a more and more common play in ring games these days. Your biggest problem would be if he manages to check-raise you on the flop and you smooth called with your draw & position, because in this situation he could most certainly peg you on some type of draw and make you pay dearly on the turn to try to see the river card.

I agree with WhyYouKickMyDog, that your decision is on the turn not the river. Depending on the player, it's really a mixed decision on the turn, as I see little fault in calling or folding. Do what that "gut" tells you I suppose...

i hate how you played this hand

flat call river

bet the flop, if done so you will get the opportunity to (re)raise the river.

Wouldnt call that bet on turn.board paired and you don't got a good pot-odds.

bet flop

what

im confused here



why is it not blatantly obvious to raise

i think i would raise here 'cause his bet is amazingly weak

On March 10 2006 12:55 asdf2000 wrote: what im confused here why is it not blatantly obvious to raise

I don't know, you tell me.

Balls after raising pf acts very weak. The bets by his opponent are very weak as well. Why would anyone assume the worst? You have the best hand the VAST majority of the time.

Victor said:
you expect a call from which hand?
He got mad weapons too? Ain't tryin to hear dat. said:
T lower flush any pair
Victor says:
i dont think you can make that read
Victor says:
there is no indication of his hand whatsoever given the play bigballs makes
Victor says:
meaning you only have a flush on a paired board without a read

So on NL100 when I'm acting weak and the guy bets really small, but I have no read I should assume he's holding the nuts?

Maybe you don't see the board but it says x6886, there are very few hands worse than yours that call you, whereas with the line he's taking 6/8 are not unlikely at all (also given the fact he's calling preflop from his blind). He doesn't exactly have to hold the nuts to beat you, but he does need it to call.

ESPECIALLY at .50/1 where your image is hardly as relevant as on the higher limits, raising marginal hands is not necessary.

On March 10 2006 12:19 Casper... wrote: i hate how you played this hand

The flop is autobet. Why are you raising A2s from the highjack if you're afraid to bet when you get such a great flop?

so u think it's more likely he is betting amazingly weak with a random 8 or 6 in his hand vs a 2 dollar preflop bet than it is that he has a lower flush, a ten, or a pair?


if u minraised there most players would call with that QQ



the opponent's play simply didn't look like a full house to me(didn't look like QQ either, though)

On March 10 2006 13:53 Nazgul wrote: Maybe you don't see the board but it says x6886

ACTUALLY!... I didn't notice the 6 was paired as well... Quite tired.

I'm more apt to call here then.

On March 10 2006 14:00 asdf2000 wrote: so u think it's more likely he is betting amazingly weak with a random 8 or 6 in his hand vs a 2 dollar preflop bet than it is that he has a lower flush, a ten, or a pair?

No I don't think so at all. I agree these hands combined are more likely than a 8 or 6.

That's irrelevant to raising though. The amount of times you will get a call I say he has a 6/8 more often than not simply because he folds the other holdings on such a dangerous board.

On March 10 2006 13:59 Rhaegar wrote: The flop is autobet. Why are you raising A2s from the highjack if you're afraid to bet when you get such a great flop?

I don't understand either. If you are the kind of player that raises A2s you should atleast bet the flop when you hit the nut flush draw.

definitely call river

minraise river yo

that's an option yes

i think thinking minraise but didnt want to say it hehe

well min or slightly more than minraise is what i was thinking too of course

On March 10 2006 12:55 asdf2000 wrote: what im confused here why is it not blatantly obvious to raise

cause hes a weak tight.

min raise? lol you guys are dumb as hell

in this situation you either raise a decent amount but not too big to make it look like a bluff or you flat call, those are your options, both of which are fine

if you have a TAG image, raising is absolutely pointless, if you have a LAG one u should raise obviously

I love how, half the people who said min-raising was a terrible idea in the "Minraising" thread, are now saying "GO MINRAISE HIM!" :-P

On March 10 2006 12:19 Casper... wrote: i hate how you played this hand

Agreed.

raise is dangerous o_o, what if he re-raises, i dont think anyone would call.