i think you could've gotten more out of this on the turn and river, i dunno

i called because there was tons of callers.
my implied odds were high then i hit

uhh i'm talking about postflop not preflop

i know ..i dont think that guy woulda called A10 more bet.
just calling on flop made me look weak so he though his aces are good,
calling river by him was retarded

Reraise flop...

you mean raise, and yeah it's probably a good idea to raise with the flush draw there but it's also ok to call i think since you also want to drag the caller behind you into the pot so that you can lure him in on the turn, it's very possible that a moderate-strong ace here will make the call and perhaps get his money in on the turn when it doesn't help either hand. if a club fell on the turn though you'd be in a tough position if he reraised you, but that only happens 1/4 of the time so i think that calling is also ok, plus there's the chance to hit the fh so you'll get beaten by a flush if he's holding 2 flush cards less than 1/4 of the time altogether.

yeah raise the flop $4 into a $20 pot is just dumb also since he is not the original raiser he'll call for sure(well, I mean most of the times)

No it's not ok to call, you HAVE to raise. This flop is 100000% begging for a raise.

oh yeah, and raise the turn more because if he was holding KcXc then he would be making pussy little blocking bets to get odds to draw to his flush, raising only $12 gives him odds to make a flush (if he's drawing to a flush, which you were lucky he wasn't, because he would've made it on the river and could've easily checkraised you there)

On April 03 2006 23:28 GoodKarma wrote: No it's not ok to call, you HAVE to raise. This flop is 100000% begging for a raise.

Not only this, there are 2 draws on board, so you have got to raise at least potsize imo. Else you give them the odds to call. I dont like this play.

why did you bet that river?? I think the best play would be raise the flop and bet the turn hard 2/3 of the pot and check call the river. But don't pay that much attention to me!

1. well first i wanted to get caller behind to call
2. i wanted to make sure that i wont get flushed on turn.
3. guy bet was to weak to bet more to get him to call.
4. on river i was little afraid he made the flush, thats didnt bet so much

bad play imo, RAISE the flop with callers and a flush board are you suicide?, raise the turn much harder its not even close to potsized.

The river hitted the flush i would check it behind, what would you do if he check-raises you? would you get stacked ?

agression

On April 03 2006 23:38 wolfheart wrote: 1. well first i wanted to get caller behind to call 2. i wanted to make sure that i wont get flushed on turn. 3. guy bet was to weak to bet more to get him to call. 4. on river i was little afraid he made the flush, thats didnt bet so much

I will reply to each one:

1. Why would you want the caller behind to call? there are a lot of draw's on board so if he wants to call, make sure he pay's the wrong price for it

2. I am sorry but lol? Get your money in with the best hand my friend, if you are afraid for the flush when there are only 2 cards of that suit, that is really bad!!!!!!! Dont play this way

3. So ? Raise him, he could have a draw and then he is going to pay the right price when he hits it!! RAISE

4. If you were afraid he made the flush, then check behind him on the river! But your money should have been in the pot a long time ago.

Greetz Ron

maybe yea. I risked this one. Shoulda raised more on turn to assure he is not chacing flush.

On April 03 2006 23:46 wolfheart wrote: maybe yea. I risked this one. Shoulda raised more on turn to assure he is not chacing flush.

Im not talking about the turn only! The flop is way more important here, You should have raised him to 16 or something there on the spot.

the only legitimate draw on the board is the flush draw, the other 3 possible straight draws (KT, JT, and KJ) will definitely not call the turn raise; you can't really be scared of gutshots, that's just pussy poker. raising the flop is the right play but i believe that it is okay to call the flop (or maybe minraise) to commit the preflop raiser to the pot

okok i played it like nab

i have sleps so few that i even wasted 35$ looking i have nuts flush ...

there's not only 1 way to play every fuckin pot, calling gets more money in the pot and makes it possible that the preflop raiser will commit more money to the pot or raise it when you're holding bottom set, since he's the preflop raiser it is very possible to assume that he has AQ or AK and expect him to raise behind you. you will get flushed, hell, less than 1/10 of the time here, so it is by no means a bad play to want the preflop raiser to get committed before making your move

post this hand in the disucssion forum, because i disagree with pokerintheface!

that being said i agree with others who say you should raise the turn more strongly, and i do agree that raising the flop is probably the *SAFEST* move, but i believe that it's still playing good poker to call and look toward the preflop raiser to stimulate action on a board with two big cards. when he flatcalls you have to raise the turn obviously because he's obviously not very happy with the flop and someone could be drawing but to say singlemindedly that you have to raise the flop every time is stupid

Its still a 4 way pot with two people left to act (pf raiser and checker), not only will you get paid out more by rasing the flop, you'll be safer on this dangerous board.

yeah but you can commit 2 guys there if the original raiser has AK or AQ he sure is going to call your raise, so you are going to a turn with twice the money in, a pot sized bet would almost stack everyone. and you are definitelly not giving odds to call for a FD while you do if you try to get cute and slowplay it

On April 03 2006 23:57 Pokerintheface wrote: to say singlemindedly that you have to raise the flop every time is stupid

Not on this board it isn't. This is $50nl, no need to try to do anything fancy. The pf raiser will either call/reraise your raise with AK/AQ/AJ or fold KK/QQ/JJ to the $4bet anyway.
I can't believe you're trying to say that calling here is ok...

if the AT guy were holding a weaker ace like A8 and the preflop raiser were holding AT instead, raising pot-sized here would've almost certainly pushed out the preflop raiser and the other guy, but if the A8 bet $4 and you call the AT guy will almost certainly raise and then you are able to make your move on him once he is more comitted. to assume that the initial preflop raise is raising on an ace high is not that bad of an assumption i think, it was wrong this time but it's not an unacceptable assumption. you have to gamble to win.

On April 04 2006 00:00 Pokerintheface wrote: if the AT guy were holding a weaker ace like A8 and the preflop raiser were holding AT instead, raising pot-sized here would've almost certainly pushed out the preflop raiser and the other guy, but if the A8 bet $4 and you call the AT guy will almost certainly raise and then you are able to make your move on him once he is more comitted. to assume that the initial preflop raise is raising on an ace high is not that bad of an assumption i think, it was wrong this time but it's not an unacceptable assumption. you have to gamble to win.

You have a lot to learn about poker... Who gives a fuck if you're squeezing some tiny amount out of A8 or KK or whatever you're trying to say here.

read the post before responding asshole, i'm saying you get more money out of an ace high raiser by calling and letting him raise instead, which works very often. the purpose is still the same, to get money in before the turn and to push out flush drawers, but you can get the preflop raiser more committed if he has AK or AJ or AT if you call and reraise or call his raise and then lead out to him on the turn.

oh yeah, and chances are a pocket pair that missed like KK or JJ or will raise here to try to steal the pot

On April 04 2006 00:08 Pokerintheface wrote: read the post before responding asshole, i'm saying you get more money out of an ace high raiser by calling and letting him raise instead, which works very often. the purpose is still the same, to get money in before the turn and to push out flush drawers, but you can get the preflop raiser more committed if he has AK or AJ or AT if you call and reraise or call his raise and then lead out to him on the turn.

I read them and you're wrong.

yeah you really proved me wrong there buddy

Well if you actually want me to I can.

i think it's kind of obvious i'm asking you to qualify your statement here but if you want me to say it outright i will

"do it bitch"

On that board you need to think about what action will make you the most money in the long run, basically the "+EV" move. It's not about squeezing $20 out of a shitty ace who will probably call anyway seeing as they are stupid enough to call preflop (which also has the undesirable effect of letting people draw cheaply) it's about stacking AK/AQ and making draws pay or kicking them out.
Each time you stack AK/AQ on this board you're making $50 + whatever other dead money is in the pot and by raising you build the pot, setting yourself up for getting it allin on a later street.
You shouldn't "disguise your strength" and "lure them in", because hands that need to be lured in aren't going to pay you off anyway. You also make people pay bigtime for a draw thats less than 1/5 chance to hit on each street. At $50nl many people call potsize or close to potsize bet with a draw. There is no guarantee that pf raiser has an ace anyway, and if they do they either have TPPK/GK or two pair they aren't laying it down. If they have KK or something you will never extract any decent amount of money anyway so no point keeping the pot small by just calling flop.
Also because there are so many people in the pot it's more likely that someone has a decent ace or a draw so you need to raise to build the pot and make draws pay.

If you still disagree say why.