Submitted by : Daut

PokerStars Game #4581905412: Hold'em No Limit ($1/$2) - 2006/04/10 - 11:02:31 (ET)
Table 'Baucis V' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 2: 123shank ($201.70 in chips)
Seat 3: Bower ($92 in chips)
Seat 4: ee00830 ($185.90 in chips)
Seat 5: Bluesman ($184 in chips)
Seat 6: TucsonOG ($181.55 in chips)
Seat 7: Daut44 ($200 in chips)
Seat 8: Cutsss ($362.30 in chips)
Seat 9: Robwill300 ($68.10 in chips)
Cutsss: posts small blind $1
Robwill300: posts big blind $2

Holecards
Dealt to Daut44
123shank: raises $6 to $8
Bower: folds
ee00830: folds
Bluesman: calls $8
TucsonOG: calls $8
Daut44: raises $24 to $32
Cutsss: folds
Robwill300: folds
123shank: calls $24
Bluesman: calls $24
TucsonOG: folds

Flop (Pot : $107)

   
123shank: checks
Bluesman: checks
Daut44: bets $62
123shank: folds
Bluesman: raises $62 to $124
Daut44 said, "ugh"
Daut44 said, "odds too good"
Daut44: raises $44 to $168 and is all-in
Bluesman: calls $28 and is all-in

Turn (Pot : $443)

   

River (Pot : $443)

   
Cutsss said, "turned set"
Cutsss said, "!:"

Showdown
Bluesman: shows (three of a kind, Queens)
Daut44: mucks hand
Bluesman collected $408 from pot
Cutsss said, "oh KK?"

Summary
Total pot $411 | Rake $3
Board  
Seat 2: 123shank folded on the Flop
Seat 3: Bower folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: ee00830 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Bluesman showed and won ($408) with three of a kind, Queens
Seat 6: TucsonOG folded before Flop
Seat 7: Daut44 (button) mucked
Seat 8: Cutsss (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: Robwill300 (big blind) folded before Flop

i was getting 320: 90 (he had 28 left after minraise), was ahead of some stuff, and figured i had about 13% equity when behind (runner runner flush + 2 outs with K).

should i fold anyway?

well.. you either have to put him on QQ or AA or the other 2 KK
best thing can happen is you tie here. so if he is at least tight and not stupid. You should fold to flop.

i dont think he needs your advice darkexprt

On April 10 2006 08:20 kantoiki wrote: i dont think he needs your advice darkexprt

i don't think you should post here unless it's for the hand discussion, this is a forum , you post what you think.
and i think you should get banned for being a dickhead.

IT would have been better to block out the results so the results orientated people aren't making biased decisions based on the results of the hand.

You reraised pf and got a Q high flop. You can pretty much say that QQ and AA is the only hand that beats you and opponent reraising you allin is what you would want to happen with your hand. You can't reraise pf with KK and commit half your money in the pot thinking about foldin to a reraise with no ace on the flop. This is a situation that you have to want to happen and will have to go allin everytime unless both of you guys are deep stacked. <-- btw this is Spunky using giyom's pc.

you can only fold in this situation with half your stack in the pot if you have a super read on the raiser. But still with that much in the pot, i would probably always call =P

Preflop: I would raise it more than just 24$, there are 2 callers who both have 8$ invested already, with the original raiser probably calling, that gives them good odds to call. You're also giving him odds for set value (close, but still).

Flop: with 3 people in, I think you made the right bet. Considering that he minraised which almost put him allin, you can certainly put the guy on QQ or AA. He wouldn't do that with TPTK because he's fullstacked and probably not a complete donkey. I think you're very much beat here, and you can fold the flop.

I think you made the mistake preflop though, by not raising enough. Could be that you thought it was a tight table and that you would hardly get a caller here.. but I don't mind just taking down the blinds here. Already a nice enough pot for your KK... That said, just an unlucky flop, but you could've gotten away with it.

Oh one last thing, if you make a weakish bet on the flop like 40$, and they have nothing, they'll still fold it because it's still 40$ which is a pretty big bet

On April 10 2006 08:08 BigBalls wrote: i was getting 320: 90 (he had 28 left after minraise), was ahead of some stuff, and figured i had about 13% equity when behind (runner runner flush + 2 outs with K). should i fold anyway?

do the math. he's all-in so there's nothing left to rely on (^_^)

if you're ahead, then what could he have except something like AQ with the Ac? Let's assume that's what you're ahead of, because I can't think of many other hands people might play here. So you have 76% equity in this case.

if you're behind, he's almost certainly got QQ. this gives you 12.2% equity.

since the pot is raised and reraised and he's still in, I think QQ is probably more likely than AQo, so let's put them at 70:30.

0.7*12.2 = 8.54% equity
0.3*76 = 22.8% equity
total = 31.34% equity
so you need 68.66:31.34 or about 2.19:1
320-90 = 3.56:1

interesting question...how sure do you have to be that he has QQ before it's a fold?

85% QQ --> 10.37%, 15% AQ --> 11.4%, total = 21.77%, you need 3.59:1 to call.

so basically if you're getting about 4:1 on an all-in and you're WA/WB (but most likely WB) you can still call with runner/runner + 2 outer even if you're almost 100% certain you're beaten

in this case it's a tough spot, but if your read made you positive he had QQ, you'd be folding here.

i think i'd be certain of QQ (or at least QQ/AA) here and fold.

basically agree 100% with everything twisted said.

i don't see how you can fold this after his bet on the flop which pretty much makes him post committed. if you were scared of QQ and AA, i dont think you should bet so much on the flop cuz a folding hand will fold anyways to a smaller bet. unless you have a super read against a player you know very well already, i think you have to call here even if you feel that you are beat =P and if he does have QQ, its just a bad beat. btw, most people would flat call a bet like that with QQ because the QQ user will know the other guy only has 2 outs and no reason to rush things.

On April 10 2006 09:19 GiYoM wrote: i don't see how you can fold this after his bet on the flop which pretty much makes him post committed. if you were scared of QQ and AA, i dont think you should bet so much on the flop cuz a folding hand will fold anyways to a smaller bet. unless you have a super read against a player you know very well already, i think you have to call here even if you feel that you are beat =P and if he does have QQ, its just a bad beat. btw, most people would flat call a bet like that with QQ because the QQ user will know the other guy only has 2 outs and no reason to rush things.

it is the re-raise here that confirms the QQ or AA.
not the pf action. i believe.

i think its bs you caught trip 6's against my AA.

definitely think he flopped a set, wouldn't have guessed QQ unless he is very passive. but i think it's a fold. the guy check raised you 1x trying to keep you in. regardless of what anyone says, on that flop with that action, there are no hands that you beat any longer or he'd just call off.

like twisted said, i'd have reraised it more preflop. there is 27 in the pot when it gets to you, your call makes it 35, so reraising to 43 sounds good. but then you get that flop and have to figure the guy has 1 of 3 hands or he's lost his mind. with that reraise pf, i could then give him credit for QQ with that flop action.

you almost have to bet the flop and the pot at that point would be about 120. and then close your eyes and call his raise i suppose. once the pot is that big, there is no turning back.

so, in a way i actually liked your reraise because you have breathing room to feel things out on the flop. if you put in a pot reraise, you should just push because if you are called, you can't think the guy is calling 1/4 his stack with anything but a pair. if he calls 43 pf, he'd probably call it all and you'd get it in with the best of it.

the thing is that if you got a rag flop, he'd probably call off there, too. also, if you pushed preflop, i'm sure he would have called. so, you just got very unlucky. i just sleep better when i know i got it all in with the best of it rather than sticking myself.

2 others see the flop this shit happens often enough to make it a solid albeit agonising fold imo?

I like what Twisted said about the $40 bet into this flop... The only problem with that is that you are inviting a semi-bluff from a hand like AcKc. With that said, I think this hand is played based on your read of the player. If he's tight / solid / smart then I think it's very likely he has QQ or AA and that your KK is probably not good at this. His minimum raise on the flop suggests that he does not have a draw (a draw woulda semi-bluffed all-in), and that he does have a made hand.

I think this is definitly foldable against the right players given enough information. I dont wanna say if I'd call or fold in this thread because I think I'd have to be at the table to see the flow of the game if you know what I mean.

i would most definately call