lohuizen is a loose station capable of having everything here and vayaC is a tight regular

Submitted by : royalsu

***** Hand History for Game 6503220840 *****
$200 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Wednesday, November 14, 20:34:53 ET 2007
Table Table 127435 (No DP) (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Total number of players : 5
Seat 2: VayaC ( $497.18 USD )
Seat 6: All_Rigged ( $497.05 USD )
Seat 4: royalsu ( $491.70 USD )
Seat 5: Rapid99 ( $544.70 USD )
Seat 1: lohuizen ( $158 USD )
All_Rigged posts small blind [$1 USD].
lohuizen posts big blind [$2 USD].

Holecards
Dealt to royalsu
VayaC raises [$7 USD]
royalsu calls [$7 USD]
Rapid99 folds
All_Rigged calls [$6 USD]
lohuizen calls [$5 USD]

Flop (Pot : $28.00)

   
All_Rigged checks
lohuizen bets [$6 USD]
VayaC raises [$35 USD]

I do not like the call preflop, utg is a tight regular as you said which means you are way behind his range. I think I cold call flop bet and wait to see what happens how the loose villain acts. I also want to see a turn card this deep.

overall this is a real tough spot.

I don't it looks like Vaya has an over pair and its about to fold no matter if u raise or call here if he is good. So Id raise to 93and take it down probably if they are all good. or go broke against "lohuizen"if he has set. If u raise to $93 and All_rigged calls then we have problem

Edit: raise to 93 insted of 100

raise to 88 fold to VayaC push get it in with lolhuzien

I think cold calling this flop is bad against a good player. If he had only $200 I open shove sometimes here with AcXc/TcXc/str8flush draw/set/2 pairs around at least %40 of the times.

On November 14 2007 17:52 capaneo wrote: I don't it looks like Vaya has an over pair and its about to fold no matter if u raise or call here if he is good. So Id raise to 100 and take it down probably if they are all good. or go broke against "lohuizen"if he has set. If u raise to $100 and All_rigged calls then we have problem

zomg! high five for typing the same thing same time

On November 14 2007 17:53 tilted fish wrote: raise to 88 fold to VayaC push get it in with lolhuzien

You fold against VayaC is the most fucked up decision you can make here. We are ahead against his range WAY more often.

what do we do if we 4 bet and vayac calls?

On November 14 2007 17:55 capaneo wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2007 17:53 tilted fish wrote: raise to 88 fold to VayaC push get it in with lolhuzien You fold against VayaC is the most fucked up decision you can make here. We are ahead against his range WAY more often.

if he pushes/re-raises the best we can hope for akc (given that he is a TIGHT regular) is it not?
and most likey 10s, 8s, or queens

then we shove/bet$200 on turn if its not a club/J/Q and take it down probably

On November 14 2007 17:55 TripSearchin wrote: what do we do if we 4 bet and vayac calls?

easy bet/shove on the turn.

vayaC is bad

raise and ship it in

heros read is vayac is a tight reg which means his utg raising range is like all pp and Aq+ I would imagine, maybe some random suited broadway hands. With this range if he pushes we are behind more often than we are ahead.

I guess we need more info but anyone competent at this level is not losing 200bb multiway on that board with AA or KK

On November 14 2007 18:01 TripSearchin wrote: heros read is vayac is a tight reg which means his utg raising range is like all pp and Aq+ I would imagine, maybe some random suited broadway hands. With this range if he pushes we are behind more often than we are ahead.

yea and if he is tight and that deep, i dont think he pushes it all on flop with AK

someone should post this hand in hand discussions

i did

On November 14 2007 18:03 tilted fish wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2007 18:01 TripSearchin wrote: heros read is vayac is a tight reg which means his utg raising range is like all pp and Aq+ I would imagine, maybe some random suited broadway hands. With this range if he pushes we are behind more often than we are ahead. yea and if he is tight and that deep, i dont think he pushes it all on flop with AK

WTF if he DOESNT push flop with AKcc he is really bad.

cool spot
obv we are not the least bit concerned about and should be happy to get it in against lohuizen

if UTG is really tight he can easily fold KK+ if you 3bet flop. I'd probably flat here and hope to extract some value against him on later streets if he has an overpair and minimize my losses if he flopped a set.

however if we flat and lohuzien comes over the top and UTG folds this an easy all-in

really cool hand tho

fold pf, raise and get it allin

On November 14 2007 18:55 twotimesopt wrote: cool spot obv we are not the least bit concerned about and should be happy to get it in against lohuizen if UTG is really tight he can easily fold KK+ if you 3bet flop. I'd probably flat here and hope to extract some value against him on later streets if he has an overpair and minimize my losses if he flopped a set. however if we flat and lohuzien comes over the top and UTG folds this an easy all-in really cool hand tho

I think the only problem with this line is that if u flat call here and UTG is a good player u might as well play ur hand face up for him. While if u raise here and widen ur raising range here by a little bit then by raising u actually might get more value from UTG. I dont have a problem with calling here but if u call here with top 2 that means u must also be calling here with AcXc/TcXc/str8flush draw/Set a fair amount of time to be a little tricky against a good player and thats what I have problem with specially since we have a shorty and All_Rigged to act as well.
Like I said before the best play here is to raise IMO and I think the best amount is to raise it to exactly $93 in total so that we can also reshove if "lohuizen" decides to go all-in.

On November 14 2007 18:17 capaneo wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2007 18:03 tilted fish wrote:   On November 14 2007 18:01 TripSearchin wrote: heros read is vayac is a tight reg which means his utg raising range is like all pp and Aq+ I would imagine, maybe some random suited broadway hands. With this range if he pushes we are behind more often than we are ahead. yea and if he is tight and that deep, i dont think he pushes it all on flop with AK WTF if he DOESNT push flop with AKcc he is really bad.

if you call his shove then you are really bad

On November 14 2007 19:15 tilted fish wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2007 18:17 capaneo wrote:   On November 14 2007 18:03 tilted fish wrote:   On November 14 2007 18:01 TripSearchin wrote: heros read is vayac is a tight reg which means his utg raising range is like all pp and Aq+ I would imagine, maybe some random suited broadway hands. With this range if he pushes we are behind more often than we are ahead. yea and if he is tight and that deep, i dont think he pushes it all on flop with AK WTF if he DOESNT push flop with AKcc he is really bad. if you call his shove then you are really bad

If you raise and fold then I want your address!

On November 14 2007 19:17 capaneo wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2007 19:15 tilted fish wrote:   On November 14 2007 18:17 capaneo wrote:   On November 14 2007 18:03 tilted fish wrote:   On November 14 2007 18:01 TripSearchin wrote: heros read is vayac is a tight reg which means his utg raising range is like all pp and Aq+ I would imagine, maybe some random suited broadway hands. With this range if he pushes we are behind more often than we are ahead. yea and if he is tight and that deep, i dont think he pushes it all on flop with AK WTF if he DOESNT push flop with AKcc he is really bad. if you call his shove then you are really bad If you raise and fold then I want your address!

yeah, raising and then folding is really bad. i think you can make a case for either flatting here and peeling a card (obv willing to get it in against lozuhien) or raising and playing for stacks. if UTG is active and will shove a wide range of hands here, i like 3betting and playing for stacks, but if all we know about him is that he is "tight", and he shoves over our 3bet he is going to have a very small range, basically TT, QQ, AJcc and AKcc with the former 2 hands being much more likely. this is why i advocate a flat call here.

On November 14 2007 20:19 twotimesopt wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2007 19:17 capaneo wrote:   On November 14 2007 19:15 tilted fish wrote:   On November 14 2007 18:17 capaneo wrote:   On November 14 2007 18:03 tilted fish wrote:   On November 14 2007 18:01 TripSearchin wrote: heros read is vayac is a tight reg which means his utg raising range is like all pp and Aq+ I would imagine, maybe some random suited broadway hands. With this range if he pushes we are behind more often than we are ahead. yea and if he is tight and that deep, i dont think he pushes it all on flop with AK WTF if he DOESNT push flop with AKcc he is really bad. if you call his shove then you are really bad If you raise and fold then I want your address! yeah, raising and then folding is really bad. i think you can make a case for either flatting here and peeling a card (obv willing to get it in against lozuhien) or raising and playing for stacks. if UTG is active and will shove a wide range of hands here, i like 3betting and playing for stacks, but if all we know about him is that he is "tight", and he shoves over our 3bet he is going to have a very small range, basically TT, QQ, AJcc and AKcc with the former 2 hands being much more likely. this is why i advocate a flat call here.

well tis funny since we know he is tight and assuming you put him on those hands how can u call his shove over our 88-100$ re-raise on flop?

On November 14 2007 20:26 tilted fish wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2007 20:19 twotimesopt wrote:   On November 14 2007 19:17 capaneo wrote:   On November 14 2007 19:15 tilted fish wrote:   On November 14 2007 18:17 capaneo wrote:   On November 14 2007 18:03 tilted fish wrote:   On November 14 2007 18:01 TripSearchin wrote: heros read is vayac is a tight reg which means his utg raising range is like all pp and Aq+ I would imagine, maybe some random suited broadway hands. With this range if he pushes we are behind more often than we are ahead. yea and if he is tight and that deep, i dont think he pushes it all on flop with AK WTF if he DOESNT push flop with AKcc he is really bad. if you call his shove then you are really bad If you raise and fold then I want your address! yeah, raising and then folding is really bad. i think you can make a case for either flatting here and peeling a card (obv willing to get it in against lozuhien) or raising and playing for stacks. if UTG is active and will shove a wide range of hands here, i like 3betting and playing for stacks, but if all we know about him is that he is "tight", and he shoves over our 3bet he is going to have a very small range, basically TT, QQ, AJcc and AKcc with the former 2 hands being much more likely. this is why i advocate a flat call here. well tis funny since we know he is tight and assuming you put him on those hands how can u call his shove over our 88-100$ re-raise on flop?

if u reraise to 100 and he shoves u have to call around 300 to win 550 which is an easy call imo with top 2.

SPECIALLY knowing that if he has a set on that flop u have a back door flush draw and back door str8 which is more than enough for me to go all-in with.

ACTION:

royalsu: calls 32
lozu: Goes all in for ~130
vayac: thinks for a long time and just calls

On November 14 2007 21:28 royalsu wrote: ACTION: royalsu: calls 32 lozu: Goes all in for ~130 vayac: thinks for a long time and just calls

lol, really? This is getting better and better.

I assume the other guy with 400 have folded? ya?

Well, If I see vayac being a good player you guys are talkin about totally taking that line with the only set/AcKc/AcJc. So here you are at best fliping so I would fold flop if its been played like that. Since now u have no FE vs a coin flip.
The shortie shoving all-in on that flop kinda narrows Vayac calling range after u cold called a 4 way flop. If Vayac is semi decent he would insta muck KK/AA after the shortie shoves on that board with 4 players on the flop.

All that is based on the fact that vayac is a really good player!

This is the reason I would not call preflop, such a sick spot to be in. I really do not know what is the right play because if you just call 130 there are so many terrible turn cards when considering Vayac's range. I think I just fold flop now that it is back to me for $130 more. Can someone pokerstove this?

On November 14 2007 21:28 royalsu wrote: ACTION: royalsu: calls 32 lozu: Goes all in for ~130 vayac: thinks for a long time and just calls

awesome!

i think vayac has KK-AA 90% of the time here, and will probably fold if you raise. flat here, and bet turn and river when he checks. i think the other 10% of the time he has AJcc or AKcc and if the turn and river brick i am playing this for stacks ez

wtf I can't believe you guys are saying fold! i think him flatting the shove is WAAAAAAAY weaker than re-shoving

Cold call on flop is terrible, far too many bad river cards. PF call is pretty bad, too. As played, i'd bump it up to $100.

On November 14 2007 21:28 royalsu wrote: ACTION: royalsu: calls 32 lozu: Goes all in for ~130 vayac: thinks for a long time and just calls

There is now no option to 4 bet the flop, it is back to you with 130 to call. One guy is all in and both you and Vayac have around $320 behind. What do you do now TheTrees

im not sure hes going to convince himself to fold to a shove on this flop, i probably get it in while its good and not second guess myself with the kind of $ that will be in the pot on the turn...

call, see what happens on turn. if you call and the first fish repops (on flop) and vayaC plays or something, then it's a clear fold. but with the first fish's bet size, vayaC's raise doesn't mean a lot, so you should see a turn and plan on turning your 2pair into a bluff a lot. just call, and if a scare card comes and it looks like nobody hit it, then plan on firing two barrels for the rest of your stack as a bluff.

so for example you call, first fish calls, turn is a 9. fish and vayaC both check. fire here, give up if raised now, otherwise jam river. same thing with a J, club, etc. on turn. and do the same thing if a ten or a Q falls.

also, you can play 22 the exact same way here and probably profit.

but yeah fold preflop

but if you see a turn and there is action in front of you, you gotta give up. but this pot belongs to you most of the time if both players check the turn

getting allin on this flop would be pretty terrible under most circumstances imo

guys quit worrying about preflop, we've got 500$ each and QToffsuit can flop a straight and hopefully he flops a set of aces and we happily get it in.

On November 14 2007 21:28 royalsu wrote: ACTION: royalsu: calls 32 lozu: Goes all in for ~130 vayac: thinks for a long time and just calls

Myth, we now know the action went like this. What does hero do now that he called the 32 and first villain pushes and second villain has called.

On November 15 2007 11:34 royalsu wrote: guys quit worrying about preflop, we've got 500$ each and QToffsuit can flop a straight and hopefully he flops a set of aces and we happily get it in.

ok, but if you habitually make tons of calls like this 120 bbs deep against tight regulars that shit can add up fast

250bb deep....

On November 14 2007 21:28 royalsu wrote: ACTION: royalsu: calls 32 lozu: Goes all in for ~130 vayac: thinks for a long time and just calls

i go all-in

the weak lead, shove line can have you boned but i think it's randomness plenty too from a donk. as far as the tight regular i think he has tp hands+overpairs more than stuff you need to worry about. plenty of money in the pot just gotta get it in.

On November 15 2007 16:12 twotimesopt wrote: 250bb deep....

oh shat just woke up and am completely out of it. thought it was 2/4

i take back what i said about calling pre and now this spot is pretty fucked up. i think when the reg flat calls deep like this he can have more draw type stuff than before so i think i still shove but this is just not a very fun spot.

Stack sizes make it look like 400nl but really it's just because Lozu has been feeding the table.

On November 15 2007 11:36 TripSearchin wrote: Show nested quote + On November 14 2007 21:28 royalsu wrote: ACTION: royalsu: calls 32 lozu: Goes all in for ~130 vayac: thinks for a long time and just calls Myth, we now know the action went like this. What does hero do now that he called the 32 and first villain pushes and second villain has called.

i wrote already what you need to do here. i said fold

edit: it was in my first post, second sentence. it might be worded a bit awkwardly

btw i'm pretty sure this is one of the biggest slam dunk folds of the century

here are the results for those who can't wait:

RESULTS

I opted for the safe and low variance play of overcalling because I don't think we're doing that well against vayac's range and I prefered to see a non-flush card hit on the turn before committing more chips.