Decided to move the hand here, the question is for VILLIANS hand not mine, please read replies before posting and think about the math not the "zomg monster draw shove".
Submitted by : Baalim

PokerStars Game #14221707583: Hold'em No Limit ($2/$4) - 2007/12/31 - 05:47:50 (ET)
Table 'Kapteynia' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: TheHoboKing ($400 in chips)
Seat 2: ShigidyShaft ($540.65 in chips)
Seat 3: witek1972 ($122.10 in chips)
Seat 4: Dixon01 ($117.20 in chips)
Seat 5: Hero ($551.30 in chips)
Seat 6: HaLoHaLo ($394 in chips)
witek1972: posts small blind $2
Dixon01: posts big blind $4

Holecards(Odds)
Dealt to Hero
Hero : raises $12 to $16
HaLoHaLo: folds
TheHoboKing: calls $16
ShigidyShaft: folds
witek1972: calls $14
Dixon01: calls $12

Flop(Odds) (Pot : $64.00)

   
witek1972: checks
Dixon01: bets $101.20 and is all-in
Hero : calls $101.20
TheHoboKing: raises $282.80 to $384 and is all-in
witek1972: folds
Hero said, "allright"
Hero : folds

Turn(Odds) (Pot : $367.60)

   

River (Pot : $367.60)

   

Showdown
Dixon01: shows (a pair of Eights)
TheHoboKing: mucks hand
Hero said, "omg"
Dixon01 collected $364.60 from pot
Hero said, "i cant believe you ****ing blow so much"

Summary
Total pot $367.60 | Rake $3
Board  
Seat 1: TheHoboKing mucked
Seat 2: ShigidyShaft (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: witek1972 (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: Dixon01 (big blind) showed and won ($364.60) with a pair of Eights
Seat 5: Hero folded on the Flop
Seat 6: HaLoHaLo folded before Flop (didn't bet)

isnt he an LPnetter..... how can this guy shove on a dry sidepot? wow.... wtf is he doing lol.

that's terrible

i don't see a problem with it

That shove is SO standard.

i still like it

On December 31 2007 02:55 pinbaLL wrote: That shove is SO standard.

You realize shortie is all-in and i have a decent hand here (to wich he is NEVER favourite if i call), and if he manages to push me off like he did he is still racing with the shorstack to happens to be quite nitty.

how is that EV+?

He has OESD (or some gay version of it)+FD

instapush everytime.

Baal you suck for folding the best hand :D

he has odds to be allin here vs probably any hand you could have.

On December 31 2007 02:59 pinbaLL wrote: He has OESD (or some gay version of it)+FD instapush everytime.

errr thats a simplistic and dumb way to see things.


he has literally ZERO fold equity (shorty all-in) and when he is called by me he is definitelly an underdog, this is a bad move, actually its quite basic i dunno how u dont see it

no, it's good actually, his push

he wants your money in the pot...

Please if you are going to post, elaborate and dont post senseless one liners.

Fold equity = ZERO

the only way he makes money is if i call him with a worse hand... wich i dont, flat calling is much more profitable

HE OBVIOUSLY HAD FOLD EQUITY AS YOU FOLDED

what do you expect him to do, flat call and then fold on a blank given those pot odds?

if he flatcalls here, he must then call your turn shove (which would be correct), its better for him to push here because you will just c/f to a turn shove by him on a scary card, giving him no implied odds to flatcall because of the possibility you may mistakenly shoving on one of his outs)

On December 31 2007 03:10 exalted wrote: HE OBVIOUSLY HAD FOLD EQUITY AS YOU FOLDED what do you expect to do, flat call and then fold on a blank given those pot odds?

sigh... read the hand properly i CALLED a shortstack all-in he has NO FOLD EQUITY because he already has to beat the shortstack on a showdown and there isnt a single penny on a sidepot...


so he didnt even shoved for a sidepot

he is +ev vs your hand, you realize that right? he is a favorite over you.

Board: 8s 6s 9d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 68.535% 68.08% 00.45% 674 4.50 { QsTs }
Hand 1: 31.465% 31.01% 00.45% 307 4.50 { Ah9h }

DUCY he wants ur money?

*confused*

On December 31 2007 03:13 exalted wrote: he is +ev vs your hand, you realize that right? he is a favorite over you. Board: 8s 6s 9d Dead: equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 68.535% 68.08% 00.45% 674 4.50 { QsTs } Hand 1: 31.465% 31.01% 00.45% 307 4.50 { Ah9h } DUCY he wants ur money?

lol i know he is obv ahead of A9 he wants me to call with A9 but im obviuosly not going to get it with this hand.

So basically he has to be AHEAD of my calling range, wich even with his draw he isnt, i dont call there with a single pair.... not kings... and maybe not even aces.

So here is my calling range:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 43.235% 42.37% 00.86% 8809 179.50 { QsTs }
Hand 1: 56.765% 55.90% 00.86% 11622 179.50 { 99-88, 66, AsKs, AsJs, As9s, Ts9s, T7s, 98s, 75s, 6s5s }



he is a 43% dog however when he does manage to push me off the hand he is definitelly ahead of shorties range... so there is some money to be made there.

I am not going to do the math but id say he is loosing money on the long run (its closer than i tought tho).


But ok, lets say he doesnt know my range so well and he tought i call with more hands, making his shove in his mind better...and EV+

however flat calling is definitelly more profitable in the long run even if his shove here is EV+

Man, that's one awkward hand, but I must say that maybe his shove isn't really as bad as it looks in the first place. That shortie already being all-in makes it such an awkward spot.

uhh, baal

the fact that you put your money in the pot against the shorty already means that hoboking is getting like 2:1 to see a showdown against the shorty

if he makes you bloat the pot for him, and then makes you fold, your dead money gives him extremely good overlay and HUGE +EV

seriously wtf how can you question this, it's a completely standard shove and he doesn't even have to think you're likely to fold

i'd overcall with his hand even if you shoved against the shorty

yeah on the spot i tought it was worse than it really is, (underestimated a bit his equity vs my calling range), but i still believe flat calling is far superior

So basically he has to be AHEAD of my calling range, wich even with his draw he isnt, i dont call there with a single pair.... not kings... and maybe not even aces.

He is way ahead of your flat calling range IMO. With KK or AA you shove over the top here.

On December 31 2007 03:51 Baal wrote: yeah on the spot i tought it was worse than it really is, (underestimated a bit his equity vs my calling range), but i still believe flat calling is far superior

And as already said: and do what on a blank turn when the equity instadrops and he has a _really_ good draw now on flop? Push is the superior move imo

Myth is 100% right...


the range i DONT fold to a shove dont call any kind of valuebet if he hits.

im a retarded fish its a good play.

- if he calls and hits, he can't get more value from you usually. he's oop and his hand is face-up. that's worse than shoving the flop.
- if he calls and misses, he often has to just chekc/fold the turn, which is clearly worse than shoving the flop.

and those are the only two possibilities

yes ur right im a stupid mexican fish i even dared to call villian dumb wtf oh well

zoz he killed yo moniez

On December 31 2007 03:58 Baal wrote: Myth is 100% right... the range i DONT fold to a shove dont call any kind of valuebet if he hits. im a retarded fish its a good play.

word

Poor Dixon was getting owned so hard yesterday that he had to turn to short stacking

LOL Baal...

Let's talk about your hand, it's kind of a weird spot your in... feels like if your going to flat call you should just jam. Flat calling ---> folding feels... wrong? Just folding feels better than that.

haha i probably jam in hobo's spot too, maybe call, idk

thats a nice pic

On December 31 2007 04:01 [vital]Myth wrote: - if he calls and hits, he can't get more value from you usually. he's oop and his hand is face-up. that's worse than shoving the flop. - if he calls and misses, he often has to just chekc/fold the turn, which is clearly worse than shoving the flop. and those are the only two possibilities

he is actually in position would that change anything?


i think not since i like the shove.

his shove is fine
his shove is espcially fine when he can also shove j9 expecting you to fold a9 and still be ahead of the shortie. shoving QTs if nothing else creates balance for the times he'll be shoving with worse than you but better than the shortie

and that aside he has a monster anyways..--

baal thats stupid because he can narrow your range down to hands that you will just flat behind there. therefore you can take out 88,99,66 from your range (unless you do flat behind but im guessing not) 89s, also is another hand we can expect not to flat. and he can factor in that your more likely to flat behind hands such as A9 than hands like AsKs this is all speculation but what im saying. and purely because flatting there might suggest weakness to the player he can easily shove his strong draw expecting to be getting over $100 dead money in the pot where hes likly 50,50 against shorties range

Are you smoothing on this drawy board w/ 2 pair / set>
also you realize he has open ended straight draw to nuts + 2 overs, hes a favorate over a ton of hands + there's a lot of dead money out there
his shove is good, and its not even close

He's ahead or flip a coin vs most of hand =O EZ all in for Villain! + the Dead Money

On December 31 2007 09:51 lostaccount wrote: Show nested quote + On December 31 2007 04:01 [vital]Myth wrote: - if he calls and hits, he can't get more value from you usually. he's oop and his hand is face-up. that's worse than shoving the flop. - if he calls and misses, he often has to just chekc/fold the turn, which is clearly worse than shoving the flop. and those are the only two possibilities he is actually in position would that change anything? i think not since i like the shove.

oh. nah doesn't really change anything, still very hard to get value when you flat the flop and then hit your hand

On December 31 2007 09:33 JonnyCosMo wrote: Let's talk about your hand, it's kind of a weird spot your in... feels like if your going to flat call you should just jam. Flat calling ---> folding feels... wrong? Just folding feels better than that.

I think your spot is much more interesting than mine, the shortstack is a tight player and i was very surpised that he turned out having such a weak hand. Then the flop pretty much nailed my range for hands I'm flat calling preflop, so even if you are ahead of the shortstack and calling is correct vs him there are many hands in my range that I am going to shove with so i really dislike the call/fold to shove line.

no need to beat a dead horse is shove is good i dunno what i was thinking.

But yeah my hand is more interesting... the shortie is not a maniac, he is a competent player im definitelly favorite over his range...

I dont see what wrong with call/folding, i mean i do hate bloating the pot to then give it away but if somebody shoves i obviously cant call, even in the best case scenario that a draw shoves as it did, im still quite a dog, and the times its a set/straight well im fucked i dont even have a spade.

If i shove over, i make most draws fold (not the best ones like QTs tho) and i totally destroy myself because i dont fold ever a hand better than mine and there are still 2 players behind to act so its kind of a suicidal overbet to isolate the shorstack wich is tight so its not like i absolutely super crush his range.

Folding... actually folding isnt bad having 2 players behind, what do you think ?