Twice that's happened today.

I think this is horrible, re-raising AK from the SB and then betting that much with just a gutshot on the flop...and out of position too...yuck

rigged

On June 17 2006 08:50 nomanirvana wrote: I think this is horrible, re-raising AK from the SB and then betting that much with just a gutshot on the flop...and out of position too...yuck

You're right, I should definitely limp with AKs and check when I miss the flop.


........

calling a raise is not limping

the pot is already raised so just call, you shouldnt RE-raise from the SB unless you are going to have good fold equity when you miss the flop which you obviously dont since you got called by bottom pair (which is beating the shit out of your 10 outs), and betting 5 dollars into a re-raised 7-dollar pot with nothing out of position is suicide, and absolutely 0 implied odds you are just lucky the queen was a diamond lol

Uhm.. I raise or reraise AKs from every position

mistake here is that you should raise more, to around 3,50$ to make it headsup or to make them fold. With a bigger raise pf you also get better fold equity on the flop.

twisted is right, the only mistake you really made was not reraising enough pf.

On June 17 2006 09:10 Twisted wrote: Uhm.. I raise or reraise AKs from every position mistake here is that you should raise more, to around 3,50$ to make it headsup or to make them fold. With a bigger raise pf you also get better fold equity on the flop.

Yeah, a bigger raise would increase fold equity MAYBE but Twisted you play higher limits than this where fold equity actually exists, this is obviously a very loose 25nl table and this is definately a bad idea since hes getting called down by bottom pair...

That's because he didn't reraise enough.

Agressiveness wins pot vs weak players like the 43s one.

It could be, but I dont think 25nl is a good place to experiment with fold equity at all, I do it all the time and it fails often. In my experience, the jump from 25nl to 50nl is huge in terms of fold equity.

On June 17 2006 09:20 nomanirvana wrote: In my experience--

This is where you lost me.

I play alot of 25nl and I bet in alot of questionable spots when people should fold but they dont and it costs me money the way it did here, get it? Being out of position with no hand only works against players who are capable of folding because you represent a high pocket pair, first you didnt even do a good job representing a high pocket pair and secondly theres no gaurantee that they would ever fold even if you did.

if they call flop you just bet turn as well and they'll fold

Not everytime, it depends on what kind of player you are dealing with...25nl has a very ecclectic mixture of different kinds of horrible players.

He should raise more preflop, and then evaluate whether the players are capable of folding to the cbet a reasonable percentage of the time, but being out of position sucks because he has to bet out so much money in a 3-way pot with basically nothing against loose players and its not like he has an image to create here. Its much better in position because its not a made hand preflop. You want to have an overpair here so you can extract value from callstations and not just hope they fold the best hand.

He isn't playing a 3 way pot most likely if he reraises harder preflop...

limping with AKs pf is weak in any position ;/

wtf? Its not limping dude, he would be calling a raise. Does limping mean calling a raise now or something?

joedirt419: raises $0.50 to $0.75
bonecrush13: folds
keoinj: folds
swedenfalang: calls $0.75
Joshua9: folds
Feiticeira00: raises $1.25 to $2

On June 17 2006 09:46 nomanirvana wrote: wtf? Its not limping dude, he would be calling a raise. joedirt419: raises $0.50 to $0.75 bonecrush13: folds keoinj: folds swedenfalang: calls $0.75 Joshua9: folds Feiticeira00: raises $1.25 to $2

a raise of x3 the big blind. You really think flat calling x3 with AKs is good poker?

I dont think there is any absolute definition of what is and is not "good poker". Good poker is about adapting to the position and players you are against, and in 25nl from the smallblind I think flat calling is usually the best play, it probably disguises your hand better anyway. AK is not that great, suited is good, but its still a drawing hand.

If you knew that these players were rocks, or just very weak/tight then certainly it would be a good play, but against a passive callstation you are fucked because hes too dumb to fold the best hand. And just keep that in mind, he outflopped you.

First you complain about a lack of fold equity because my opponents are morons, then you criticise AKs for being only a drawing hand and now you're suggesting I cold call a preflop miniraise to disguise it?

You are a moron.

Why use a personal insult to make a point? Instead develop a real argument based on the hand and not an arbitrary definition of what "good poker" is. I dont know what you are talking about "First you complain about a lack of fold equity because my opponents are morons, then you criticise AKs for being only a drawing hand and now you're suggesting I cold call a preflop miniraise to disguise it?"

Yeah, thats what I said (sort of). With a drawing hand you want MORE fold equity because when you miss you want to win the pot with a cbet (duh). You also need to realize that being out of position puts you at a disadvantage with a drawing hand because your continuation bet is made without seeing their actions first (duh). When you have a made hand like AA-KK even if they improve you often have the best hand on the flop, with AK you have to improve on the flop or you really dont have much.

You basically just paraphrased my argument without really looking at its essence and then called me a moron, what is your point? You have no argument.

You call AK an average hand that I shouldn't be raising with and in the next breath tell me I'm not raising enough to create fold equity against players who you also freely admit have absolutely none.

And I have no argument?

Tell me, if AKs is only a 'good' hand and only for drawing, why am I supposed to limp in to try and disguise it?

For the 5th time, its not fucking limping. I didnt call AK an average hand I called it a DRAWING hand. Thirdly, I did not say you shouldn't re-raise with AK, I said you should not re-raise with AK in the smallblind at 25nl.

And yes, you have no argument because so far everything you've said is just dependent on re-arranging what i've said.

The point is, IF you are going to this at 25nl and in the smallblind, which is something I wouldnt do because I dont see it as a good play against unknown 25nl players, you need to get the pot heads up by raising more preflop because you are fucked oop in a 3-way pot with this hand against these players. Even then its not necessarily going to work out.

AK - 60%
34 - 40%


AA - 80%
34 - 20%

AK vs 34 vs XX you are under 50% whereas with AA in a 3-way pot you remain over 50%.

reraise more pf