24/20 villain
sometimes you just know

if you know then fold the river

can't fold river too because he has nuts or air and in this guy's view AA is the nuts and he has to slowplay a drawy flop like a good donk

then bet the flop

On November 30 2008 09:45 killThemDonks wrote: then bet the flop

yea I figured I could bet/fold flop to a c/r but then I prefered to see a cheap showdown/induce stupidity on later streets. dunno if betting flop is best because of how rarely villain will check flop here ( I thought he had a set or something really shitty)

On November 30 2008 09:45 killThemDonks wrote: then bet the flop

if his read is that the guy has nuts or air then why would he bet flop?

if he has air + weaker hand more often than he has the nuts here then this is fine

only reason i dont like the not betting flop is cuz the board is draw heavy.

On November 30 2008 10:10 Fox wrote: only reason i dont like the not betting flop is cuz the board is draw heavy.

ya the board is draw heavy but pretty much anyone raising UTG will be cbetting any type of draw they have so when they check u can usually assume they don't have a draw (as weird as that sounds) typically not cbetting flops like this for guys means that ya they either have air or at least KK hoping you will catch up on later streets. So I think this hand was played fine.

On November 30 2008 10:10 Fox wrote: only reason i dont like the not betting flop is cuz the board is draw heavy.

didn't figure he would ever c/c with a drawing hand as a pre utg raiser,maybe c/raise with nut flush draw ( I didn't want this obv)

oh palak was faster
of course villain is horrible,I thought he had set or air tbh

Why not an underpair? I reckon you can bet/snapfold 3 streets because of that possibility. You would have lost at maximum the same amount of money to his nuts range since we really don't expect him to check 3 streets with it almost ever, and often you lose less when checkraised on the flop; and you town his underpair range hardcore since he's more likely to be heroic in this kind of spot where he hasn't shown any aggression.

On November 30 2008 10:29 Oly wrote: Why not an underpair? I reckon you can bet/snapfold 3 streets because of that possibility. You would have lost at maximum the same amount of money to his nuts range since we really don't expect him to check 3 streets with it almost ever, and often you lose less when checkraised on the flop; and you town his underpair range hardcore since he's more likely to be heroic in this kind of spot where he hasn't shown any aggression.

I wouldn't put him on an underpair once he bets turn...i think most ppl with underpairs will cbet flops, if they give up on the flop then they just give up on the entire hand w/o hitting a set on later streets. So I don't see betting flop vs checking flop as being any different when an underpair is involved unless he 2outs us. If your saying bet flop then fold to any bet he does on later streets then I can see betting flop as good, but not much different then just checking.

funny part is if he 3 barrlerd you would have paied off

I put underpairs in his range when he checks flop, when we check behind and he leads turn they are of course very unlikely. And the difference with betting the flop is pretty big imo. We lose much less money on average against his nuts range, and win more from his underpair range when we make an attempt on 3 streets of value. To arrange that situation is pretty good.

On November 30 2008 10:47 TalentedTom wrote: funny part is if he 3 barrlerd you would have paied off

this is why I think his line is extremely retarded

On November 30 2008 10:49 Oly wrote: I put underpairs in his range when he checks flop, when we check behind and he leads turn they are of course very unlikely. And the difference with betting the flop is pretty big imo. We lose much less money on average against his nuts range, and win more from his underpair range when we make an attempt on 3 streets of value. To arrange that situation is pretty good.

I see what you're saying Oly but I think the assumption that I can get three streets of value vs an underpair is a bit farfetched.I would obv bet turn and river if he checked to but I think protecting the possibly good equity of my hand vs a villain that I don't expect not to cbet often on flop without the intention to c/r is an added benefit of checking back flop instead of betting.

in fact I think it's a great idea to bet flop hard when checked to if I believe villain checks here often trying to pot control.It just didn't seem so because of the aggro tag image the guy had

On November 30 2008 10:55 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2008 10:47 TalentedTom wrote: funny part is if he 3 barrlerd you would have paied off this is why I think his line is extremely retarded

this is also why your preflop call is bad since your checking down your best flop

On November 30 2008 11:20 TalentedTom wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2008 10:55 lebowski wrote:   On November 30 2008 10:47 TalentedTom wrote: funny part is if he 3 barrlerd you would have paied off this is why I think his line is extremely retarded this is also why your preflop call is bad since your checking down your best flop

I was reacting to the fact that he took a fishy line,if he bet flop like he usually does that doesn't mean that I would have folded a decent hand or draw. I'm never folding vs a guy with his stats here pre,but does this mean that I have to bet when checked to when I recognize something fishy?

On November 30 2008 13:27 lebowski wrote: Show nested quote + On November 30 2008 11:20 TalentedTom wrote:   On November 30 2008 10:55 lebowski wrote:   On November 30 2008 10:47 TalentedTom wrote: funny part is if he 3 barrlerd you would have paied off this is why I think his line is extremely retarded this is also why your preflop call is bad since your checking down your best flop I was reacting to the fact that he took a fishy line,if he bet flop like he usually does that doesn't mean that I would have folded a decent hand or draw. I'm never folding vs a guy with his stats here pre,but does this mean that I have to bet when checked to when I recognize something fishy?

theres nothing fishy about checking Q9xcc he can easily have JJ-TT, 9x AK etc..which he dosnt want to get rasied off it's very common for people to check 2nd pair OOP..

perhaps you are right about the underpair/AK thing, I can't be certain that he always cbets them,I still doubt I can get more than 2 streets of value though.There's no real real need for me to protect my hand from 2-3 outers and I can induce lighter calls on the next streets because my hand is underrepresented,that was my thinking at the time