um don't raise that river fwiw, you are turning your hand completely into a bluff because you arn't getting called by anything worse, ever.

yeah JJ/QQ are going to fold for $34 more

On December 11 2008 08:39 Artanis[Xp] wrote: yeah JJ/QQ are going to fold for $34 more

Just bet the turn if you think that's the majority of his range... I kind of agree with Palak and to me this seems to play backwards... Either bet turn and river plays itself mostly or turn check and flat on river imo...

On December 11 2008 08:38 palak wrote: um don't raise that river fwiw, you are turning your hand completely into a bluff because you arn't getting called by anything worse, ever.

plz dont give advice if u suck

wtfr???????

On December 11 2008 08:41 Kilay wrote: Show nested quote + On December 11 2008 08:39 Artanis[Xp] wrote: yeah JJ/QQ are going to fold for $34 more Just bet the turn if you think that's the majority of his range... I kind of agree with Palak and to me this seems to play backwards... Either bet turn and river plays itself mostly or turn check and flat on river imo...

I'm not saying I agree with the river shove, I'm just saying that it's retarded to think he's never going to get called by worse. Personally, I think it's best to just bet turn and get it in as you crush his range and don't want him to leave with anything but his entire stack in.

tell me how is this not a shove.

betting something gay like $20 on the turn can let him spaz out and if he flatcalls you can still get it in on the river, or check behind if it's a horrible card for you.

i think if you have no clue about whats going on at the table. dont give advice

On December 11 2008 08:43 Artanis[Xp] wrote: Show nested quote + On December 11 2008 08:41 Kilay wrote:   On December 11 2008 08:39 Artanis[Xp] wrote: yeah JJ/QQ are going to fold for $34 more Just bet the turn if you think that's the majority of his range... I kind of agree with Palak and to me this seems to play backwards... Either bet turn and river plays itself mostly or turn check and flat on river imo... I'm not saying I agree with the river shove, I'm just saying that it's retarded to think he's never going to get called by worse. Personally, I think it's best to just bet turn and get it in as you crush his range and don't want him to leave with anything but his entire stack in.

Agreed.

I agree 100% w/ everyone who is saying bet turn and then river is obv shove.
Here's the problem w/ raising river.
With 3bet pre you can assume his range dropped to like PP (guessing he is bad), maybe AT, AQ, most likely JJ+ or possibly 89,9T,JT if he is one of those dumb fuck ooo i got a SC i call to defend dumb asses.
When he only calls the flop he has either a draw or a monster because I think JJ and QQ will snap shove on an all low board w/o thinking much.
Turn going check check doesn't tell much about the hand since he can be checking his entire range expecting to c/rai
Betting river is either for Value with a set, straight QQ or JJ, maybe AT. JJ and QQ are unlikely since he prob would have shoved pre or on the flop as i said. Sets are highly likely since they now are trying hardcore to get value. AT is possible but he will snap fold to a raise.
We arn't saying your hand isn't super strong, but there are 0 hands in his range (if he's any good) which are going to call a raise here. That you have beat. The only way this river shove is profitable is if u expect him to play AT in a 3bet pot or play JJ or QQ this way. What else calls your shove?

i dunno what u guys do but i 3bet kinda light. people know that. and my usual line is cbet/give up. in insta checked behind on turn which made me look kinda weak this could result in people betting/shoving into me thinking im weak. ive done this in the past as well and won loads. To call this beat, given stack sizes, you have to be strong. So they will def valuebet with JJ/QQ on a brick river.

also this is guy is a 18/15/2.5 reg

On December 11 2008 08:50 palak wrote: I agree 100% w/ everyone who is saying bet turn and then river is obv shove. Here's the problem w/ raising river. With 3bet pre you can assume his range dropped to like PP (guessing he is bad), maybe AT, AQ, most likely JJ+ or possibly 89,9T,JT if he is one of those dumb fuck ooo i got a SC i call to defend dumb asses. When he only calls the flop he has either a draw or a monster because I think JJ and QQ will snap shove on an all low board w/o thinking much. Turn going check check doesn't tell much about the hand since he can be checking his entire range expecting to c/rai Betting river is either for Value with a set, straight QQ or JJ, maybe AT. JJ and QQ are unlikely since he prob would have shoved pre or on the flop as i said. Sets are highly likely since they now are trying hardcore to get value. AT is possible but he will snap fold to a raise. We arn't saying your hand isn't super strong, but there are 0 hands in his range (if he's any good) which are going to call a raise here. That you have beat. The only way this river shove is profitable is if u expect him to play AT in a 3bet pot or play JJ or QQ this way. What else calls your shove?

no, ur dumb.

On December 11 2008 08:51 gororokgororok wrote: i dunno what u guys do but i 3bet kinda light. people know that. and my usual line is cbet/give up. in insta checked behind on turn which made me look kinda weak this could result in people betting/shoving into me thinking im weak. ive done this in the past as well and won loads. To call this beat, given stack sizes, you have to be strong. So they will def valuebet with JJ/QQ on a brick river.

If that's your read on this villain alone then shove is fine. But often I'm shocked to see JJ/QQ show up here, those are usually just pushed pre. Maybe JJ you get value, but why not just call and see for future use when you lose to the majority of his range. Say his range here is 88-QQ. Your raise is -EV vs that range i'm pretty sure, especially considering JJ will likely be pushed earlier in the hand and QQ like always is pushed pre.

my rivershove is 100% for value.

I don't see the reason for checking here since he should never call the flop to float, as he's oop. This means he'll always have something he wishes to continue with. This means he probably has a pp. If he has a pp like 77, he wants to see sd as cheaply as possible and will check turn/river. It might however call a second barrel if you've been proven to bluff a bit, and it'd definitely call a $20 turn bet.

I like the way you thought about the hand, however you have to realize that he isn't floating air and if you're more likely to get paid off by betting then checking the turn as he'll likely be calling with bluffcatchers whilst he won't bet them.

ok baal pretty much=awesome so i guess i'm wrong in this hand just wondering what hands we put him on here that call this shove which he is ahead of?

goooooooo gororok!

On December 11 2008 08:58 palak wrote: ok baal pretty much=awesome so i guess i'm wrong in this hand just wondering what hands we put him on here that call this shove?

Probably some about table dynamics as well, can't get everything out of a hand history.

On December 11 2008 08:54 palak wrote: Show nested quote + On December 11 2008 08:51 gororokgororok wrote: i dunno what u guys do but i 3bet kinda light. people know that. and my usual line is cbet/give up. in insta checked behind on turn which made me look kinda weak this could result in people betting/shoving into me thinking im weak. ive done this in the past as well and won loads. To call this beat, given stack sizes, you have to be strong. So they will def valuebet with JJ/QQ on a brick river. If that's your read on this villain alone then shove is fine. But often I'm shocked to see JJ/QQ show up here, those are usually just pushed pre. Maybe JJ you get value, but why not just call and see for future use when you lose to the majority of his range. Say his range here is 88-QQ. Your raise is -EV vs that range i'm pretty sure, especially considering JJ will likely be pushed earlier in the hand and QQ like always is pushed pre.

http://www.liquidpoker.net/h/586344

enough said?

On December 11 2008 09:06 gororokgororok wrote: Show nested quote + On December 11 2008 08:54 palak wrote:   On December 11 2008 08:51 gororokgororok wrote: i dunno what u guys do but i 3bet kinda light. people know that. and my usual line is cbet/give up. in insta checked behind on turn which made me look kinda weak this could result in people betting/shoving into me thinking im weak. ive done this in the past as well and won loads. To call this beat, given stack sizes, you have to be strong. So they will def valuebet with JJ/QQ on a brick river. If that's your read on this villain alone then shove is fine. But often I'm shocked to see JJ/QQ show up here, those are usually just pushed pre. Maybe JJ you get value, but why not just call and see for future use when you lose to the majority of his range. Say his range here is 88-QQ. Your raise is -EV vs that range i'm pretty sure, especially considering JJ will likely be pushed earlier in the hand and QQ like always is pushed pre. http://www.liquidpoker.net/h/586344 enough said?

haha ya guess he likes to overvalue hands and i've never doubted he will call ur shove here w/ JJ/QQ...I'm basically just saying I don't think he will have JJ or QQ here very often cuz he will shove them pre or on the flop cuz JJ/QQ will be scared that if u have AK you could hit a A or K on the turn so they want to get the money in while they are ahead and no play a guessing game when an A or K turns. But a set is hoping if you have AK you do hit an A or K on the flop so they are calling/slowplaying in case you do have AK they don't wanna blow u out of the pot.