Submitted by : Daut

PokerStars Game #5880155535: Tournament #29758256, 5400FPP Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (100/200) - 2006/08/11 - 17:35:20 (ET)
Table '29758256 1' 10-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: Gregory06 (4720 in chips)
Seat 6: moorten (2720 in chips)
Seat 7: GreatDane14 (3640 in chips)
Seat 9: pokitsnowmen (870 in chips)
Seat 10: Daut44 (3050 in chips)
Gregory06: posts the ante 25
moorten: posts the ante 25
GreatDane14: posts the ante 25
pokitsnowmen: posts the ante 25
Daut44: posts the ante 25
Daut44: posts small blind 100
Gregory06: posts big blind 200

Holecards
Dealt to Daut44
moorten: folds
GreatDane14: raises 400 to 600
pokitsnowmen: folds
Daut44: folds
Gregory06: folds
GreatDane14 collected 625 from pot
GreatDane14: doesn't show hand

Summary
Total pot 625 | Rake 0
Seat 1: Gregory06 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: moorten folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: GreatDane14 collected (625)
Seat 9: pokitsnowmen (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: Daut44 (small blind) folded before Flop

not a misclick
is this fold correct?
4 qualify

i think everyone gets that, not too hard to figure out

wtf all in

he didnt put u all in and u are the one with fold equity
plus if he calls u are at least 80% to win

maybe if 3 guys all had 800 stacks u can safely fold into qualifying, but just 1 guy he can easily double up and then it will be even again

wuld u have called if u covered?

i'm pretty damn sure that even with the top 4 qualifying structure, this laydown is incorrect, but someone will have to verify/dispute that with some math

so basically this post is worthless

kthxl8r

Seat 9: pokitsnowmen (870 in chips)

yea the chip disperaty isn't that extreme but you cant blame him

i assumed it was a big tournament

this is a really bad fold. he's very unlikely to call you if you push, he wants to qualify just as much. you gotta push that :[

back in the day I played this huge fpp tournament and I had like 80K in chips it was on the bubble, no one had over 20K and i just went all in every hand, the short stack wasn't at our table... i double 5 idiots up, but the blind collecting balanced me out finally I beat JJ all in preflop wiht my J4, and the dude was pissed.... I mean he could have waited like 5 mins and he'd have qualified

omg that would be a good fold if thre were a super short stack with like 1 or 2 blinds, raiser is aware that only 4 qualifies he wont call your push so take it down preflop.

If the SS doubles up now you are fucked up battling in even conditions when you should have a big advantage if you pushed those Aces

I went in every hand for almost 40 hands by the way, it's a nice memory

So i think i don't understand this game AT ALL if you fold here.
Basically, check the "fold every hand" option and wait for your qualification...
Sometimes i prefer not thinking too much and play. But that is my 2 cents.

he just wanted to be like doyle and harrington, they both mentioned the example of folding AA preflop in qualifiers in thier books, though they may never have been in the position to do it since they didn't explicitly say that they had been

i guess nobody else thought of it so i'll say it first

classic bigballs fold

hahaha


now that we are on that i wonder what would be the good move with

KK (i still think pushing is fine)
QQ (???)
AKs (???)

i understand the fold but
no -_- ----->all in

oops rofl

uh no wtf are you talking about, if he loses he's out.

Well done DarkXprT.

On August 11 2006 15:22 Baal wrote: hahaha now that we are on that i wonder what would be the good move with KK (i still think pushing is fine) QQ (???) AKs (???)

This isnt entirely the same situation as a SNG, but I recall a SNG situation where there were two large stacks, two very short stacks and the smaller bigstack raised, bigger one shoved and the question was posed what hands do you call with for a +ev situation. Turned out AA is the only hand you should really be doing that with. I think its safe to say that the two situations are similar enough to lay down all but AA in both situations.

Incorrect fold. You'r fold equity here is absolutley massive and if he calls your at least a 4:1 favorate to garuntee a qualify (assuming he only calls with PP and AK).

Kinda funny though bigballs posting a thread about folding AA preflop, who else would ever make a thread like this lol :D

lol
KK- is a fold
this is a push because i have lots of fold equity
if its calling a push i think folding is correct
how small would the stack have to be to just fold AA here? 300?

i honestly only folded just for the sheer fun of folding AA preflop lol
only the 2nd time ive ever done it

On August 11 2006 15:59 BigBalls wrote: i honestly only folded just for the sheer fun of folding AA preflop lol only the 2nd time ive ever done it

i dont even want to hear about the first situation
i hope all ended well and you qualified in this after that fold

I would say

shortstacks chips < SB, fold any two

Of course he qualified, if he folds AA preflop I can't immagine what he must have when he actually decides to play, omfg.

he only play AA when he got a read vilian got AK

He miscliked, and is now trying to look good by showering it with weird logic and strategy

I guess he waits for the pocket Jokers

SmallBalls

On August 11 2006 17:04 TalentedTom wrote: I guess he waits for the pocket Jokers

On August 11 2006 17:25 pinbaLL wrote: SmallBalls

If he pushed all in this is a fold. Sense he only made a standard raise you get to push all in here and he has to fold. The only time you fold here is if your very sure that he doesn't understand that concept and will call, but you need to be very sure. In fact, so long as he is a decent player you could argue for pushing all in with any two here sense he has to fold any two.

lol...

playing 0% of your hands is the new LAG

Funny seeing ppl in WSOP push AQo TT and worse for like millions of $ and your folding aces preflop for a qualifier

how did it go

hmm bigballs u r a good player and such but this is such a bad play hehe

but the question is: did u quali? if it worked out then no harm hehe

On August 11 2006 16:46 TalentedTom wrote: Of course he qualified, if he folds AA preflop I can't immagine what he must have when he actually decides to play, omfg.

hahahaha

On August 11 2006 18:25 CamilaPunt wrote: hmm bigballs u r a good player and such but this is such a bad play hehe but the question is: did u quali? if it worked out then no harm hehe

yeah man it's all about results, not decisions.

On August 11 2006 19:07 [vital]Myth wrote: Show nested quote + On August 11 2006 18:25 CamilaPunt wrote: hmm bigballs u r a good player and such but this is such a bad play hehe but the question is: did u quali? if it worked out then no harm hehe yeah man it's all about results, not decisions.

shut up and give us some excel spreadsheets bitch

i dont get where Myth gets "its all about results, not decisions" from my statement

ehm slow much?

On August 11 2006 18:25 CamilaPunt wrote: but the question is: did u quali? if it worked out then no harm hehe

That's why myth bashed you. For saying stupid stuff.

erm i really don't mind this fold. I fold KK here for sure. Everyone who is like WTF HORRIBLE FOLD most likely sucks really bad at sats. I have no idea how to work out if your 80%+ to get a seat, but i would imagine you are as people in these things play poker so horrible.

On August 11 2006 14:45 Oxy wrote: this is a really bad fold. he's very unlikely to call you if you push, he wants to qualify just as much. you gotta push that :[

mmm i bubbled a $500 EPT seat because i wasn't sure if i could fold in, and pushed JJ from the BB for 50k vs a 10k button raise, and he turbo called off 3/4 of his stack with 88. It was a totally horrible call regardless of my range.

Most people don't know how to play sats and can't make the correct laydowns. If we think we are >80% to cash in this then its a fold. I think its certainly possible this is a fold.

It would depend on how active the table is, and how good the other players are as to whether i push/fold this

On August 11 2006 17:59 DaEm0niCuS wrote: Funny seeing ppl in WSOP push AQo TT and worse for like millions of $ and your folding aces preflop for a qualifier

your dumb.

I disagree with you Jon. I think there's a big difference between JJ and AA. I think you have a LOT of fold equity, and I don't think he's going to call JJ (unless he's horrible). you'll bust here less than <10% of the time and you'll get the seat very often if you win and you're not guaranteed a spot in your current stack situation. obv KK is a fold.

im not slow lucifer.. you put in bold what i said.. but that is in reference to if his idea worked out then he didnt lose the money that he invested for this... thus no harm

im not saying that his decision was good or not... and im not saying that results > smart decision making

hes generalizing one event.. so again... i am not slow but thanks for checking

also hes assuming bigballs decision is a bad one.. i agree on that, but its no a fact.. there is no 1 right way to go on a play

lol bigballs u r so much art

if the whole table pushed in front of me i would call with 76s

where is NTT anyway! =[

this is not a ffold

I'd go allin.. youre not huge and the small guy isnt supertiny, if he doubles once he has 50% of your chips. you got the absolute nuts and your opponent will probably fold to your allin anyways. It's not like he is going allin to begin with and putting you up for a decision of all your chips.

I think this fold actually depends on whether the other players on the table know how to play satellites haha

in which case it's correct to open every pot where the short stack has folded?

or am I getting confused with another situation

btw I don't mind this fold at all, having said that I think I would have pushed but only AA obv.

On August 12 2006 03:44 Daaman wrote: where is NTT anyway! =[

he's often at the 100nl full ring tables at stars

go all in if u lose i guess it was never meant to be but life goes on, new day new life

On August 12 2006 03:08 Pokerintheface wrote: if the whole table pushed in front of me i would call with 76s

not in a sat that gives 4 seats with 5 left....


I hope?

On August 11 2006 22:42 TwistedEcho wrote: Show nested quote + On August 11 2006 17:59 DaEm0niCuS wrote: Funny seeing ppl in WSOP push AQo TT and worse for like millions of $ and your folding aces preflop for a qualifier your dumb.

Irony anyone?

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

And meh, I can't see the harm in pushing here.

A) He most likely folds, cause he know you have a very very small pushing range in this situation (assuming he's cluey).

B) For some reason he calls. I can't see him calling with much less than KK here, especially since his tourny life is on the line. Point being, you're a long way ahead.

A fold here isn't bad, but imo a push is the best play. I'd say he's almost certainly going to fold, and even if he does call it isn't really that bad a situation is it?

you have to allin. he probably calls you about 2% of the time, and of those times, he wins about 20% of the time.

.02 * .2 = .004 = .4% of the time you will lose because you shoved here.

Then, if the 870 stack doubles up, then its anybodys game again. you are prob 10% to lose if this happens. But, if you win this 1025 chip pot, i think it greatly increases the odds that you make it, even if the shorty doubles up, and such an insanely small chance you bust here.

Weighing the 2 against each other, I think its a pretty clear push. The situation where you should fold aces pretty much requires that you have no fold equity with them. as a general rule, if you have a decent amount of fold equity, you need to shove your AA.

a fold here IS bad

if u fold aces here how in god's name can u expect to win this

On August 11 2006 23:44 Oxy wrote: I disagree with you Jon. I think there's a big difference between JJ and AA. I think you have a LOT of fold equity, and I don't think he's going to call JJ (unless he's horrible). you'll bust here less than <10% of the time and you'll get the seat very often if you win and you're not guaranteed a spot in your current stack situation. obv KK is a fold.

erm, if its 88 calling you then AA = JJ. The point wasn't that i bubbled with jacks, its that in a $13r with a $500 bubble he autocalled with 88... im pretty sure a FPP sat player to the $200 can make just as bad calls. Im just saying, if hes one of those people, then sure fold. If hes shown he has some idea how to play sats then pushing is wonderful.

If im not sure he can fold TT-KK, then i think its a fold. We don't want to take an 80/20 here. I agree in general though its a push vs reasonable players

On August 12 2006 11:57 asdf2000 wrote: a fold here IS bad if u fold aces here how in god's name can u expect to win this

by waiting for the shortstack to bust, or waiting for two people with AK v TT to get allin when they don't need to bubble. This is why sats are so ridic profitable, because people that should be folding into the money can't manage to fold ''good'' hands, and manage to bust themselves. I have NEVER folded KK preflop (excluding a sat), and i rarely fold QQ/AK preflop in a normal mtt but yet i've easily folded AA about 10 times in sats. (including open folding my sb, that was fun!)

or we push and either win the pot or enhance our probable finish significantly or maybe possibly bust

this is in no way in hell a fold and i don't see how people can say it is

I understand that folding in sats can be a good option but i would be the fish and push with AA and probably even with KK. If you're folding everything (which i assume since you fold AA), when the shortstack doubles up (he could be like 40% to do this), you'll get in trouble fairly soon also.

And about the NTT statement, if the entire table pushes (say 8 ppl) and you do the same with your aces, wont you be something like at least 25% to win, giving you decent to good pot odds (except when it's one of those made up tables where all your options are cancelled out)? Seems to me you're always getting a better chance than 12.5 % anyway...

i think AA is a push here because of the fold equity.
KK- i would without a doubt fold.
however, folding AA here is not nearly as bad as some of you think. Yes, I did qualify. one factor i didnt mention is that info said blinds 200/400 within 1 minute. so the shortstack would have <2 big blinds in 1 or 2 more hands.
if it was pushed to me instead of std raise, AA i would autofold here. and its not even close.