I can't tell if you're valueshoving or bluffshoving.
That generally means it's a bad shove.

On March 27 2009 10:05 Artanis[Xp] wrote: I can't tell if you're valueshoving or bluffshoving. That generally means it's a bad shove.

Flop:
Here i might reraise the flop when he bet. But its depending on what kind of player he is. If he is a player who bets with weak hands and call down easy with second pair or something, i might reraise flop. But often i would call here. so lets assume i called like you did.

Turn: I dont really see the point in reraising turn here, its better to just call.

Reason 1: for this is that when you reraise i dont think you would ever get called bye a worse hand very often, so your putting yourself in a spot where you might have to go all inn, drawing only to a flushdraw when one card is left, or maybe drawing to the 10 and a flushdraw, if he got you beat with a hand like AJ KJ QJ.

Reason 2: if you just call, you might get some value from the 8 or a 6 on the river, so you can might valuebet alittle bit with the jack if you get checked to on river. But if he bets on river too, i would just call or fold, depending some on how much he bets and what kind of player he is, and what i think his betting size means.

Reason 3: if you just call and hit the flush on river, i think you can might get alot of action from his two pair anyway. And you can get alittle bit of action from the 8 that he might not give you if you reraise him out on turn.

Reason 4: for not reraising is that he might have the 8 and hit two pair while you hit a higher two pair, or he hits two pair you hit your flush on river, and he might even have a 6 and hits trips on river while you hit flush. So if you just call, you would get alot of value from that too.

Well some reasons for reraising turn is that, Reason 1: you might get him to fold a straightdraw wich he might suck out on you with on river

but this dont happen very often since he is only drawing to maximum 6 outs with a straightdraw, and he is drawing to 2 outs where you hit your flush when he hits his straight were you probally would get him all inn. if he is drawing to a straightdraw and hits, you wont lose much anyway since you would probally just call the river bet he makes, or just check if he checks to you, (maybe valuebet river if he checks to you and fold if he reraise your valuebet, wich again is player depended and game depended. but i dont think many people check reraise bluff on this level very often)

Reason 2: You get alittle bit of value from him if he decides to call your reraise with a straightdraw and misses (but dont think they call a reraise this big with a straightdraw very often)

Reason 3: Maybe maybe, you can get him to fold a jack with a higher kicker, but dont think you would get a fold very often, this is also player depended.

So if we compare the reasons for just calling turn against the reasons for reraising turn I think its way better to just call the turn here.

River: I dont see the reason for pushing here. I think you could might call the bet. This is beacuse he might have a missed straightdraw or a lower pair, wich you beat anyway if you just call. If this is a bluff, i dont see him fold very many hands that have you beat so you would lose your stack wich a hand who would might win if you just call.

SO:
IF YOU CALL: You might win over the hands that you can beat and there are some hands that you can beat. And you just lose against the hands that have you beat (And those hands would call the river push anyway to often for you to push all inn bluff here).

IF YOU PUSH ALL INN: The hands that you can beat would fold anyway so you wont get any value from them. And the hands that you dont beat will call you anyway when you push the river like this, so then you lose alot more than you would in the first place.

The conclution on river is: Dont push all inn here! Just call!