So I watched Grindcore backshoving 22-99 and it makes loads of sense.

This was NOT a good spot for that though when I though about it later

A) small sample size
B) positions
C) raiser has 60 wtsd and is far from solid, I am strongly suspect he is not calling only premiums and this will be most likely-ev despite his 14% 3bet (over small sample) (The fact that he had KK doesn't mean/change anything)
D) we were 111bb deep effective, the PF raiser raised only $3 and the squeeze was relatively small
= > less dead money in the pot relative to stacks

Well, I have to learn somewehere

The spot in question was when a normal player raised BU, he called with 99 and bb squeezed (WAY more favourable positions)

Show nested quote + I love your videos, you are my hero Grindcore. By the way could you please expand on the shoving of 99 (you said 22-88 are virtually the same) when we get squeezed? Is this still standard if the original raiser folds? Could you please expand on reasoning and your equity when shoving pp's that we called PF in this spot? Many Thanks This is still standard when the pfr folds. When the PFR calls there's some extra dead money so unless he has a range that's gonna call twice, it's even better than when he folds. When he calls twice his range for doing that influences the EV (like him ever flatting AA there, or calling twice with 66). 95% of players don't squeeze mid pairs but only broadways Ax Kx some junk maybe and premiums or something. They'll call the backraise with all their premiums. equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 35.504% 35.21% 00.29% 224290476 1863336.00 { 22 } Hand 1: 64.496% 64.20% 00.29% 408959940 1863336.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ } equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 37.260% 37.06% 00.20% 236051700 1286694.00 { 99 } Hand 1: 62.740% 62.54% 00.20% 398352000 1286694.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ } As you see 22-99 are all the same hand. Lets say PFR folded, which generally makes it worse to backraise. If we jam and get called the pot will be 203 bbs so with ~36% equity we have 73bbs equity. We jam allin for 97 more, so when we get called we lose 24bbs. There are 18bbs in the pot. So we're risking 24 to win 18, so it has to work 24/(18+24) = 57% of the time. So if TT+/AQ+ are less than 43% of villains range, we can jam. TT+/AQ+ are 4.7% of all startinghands, so his squeezingrange has to be 4.7/0.43 = 10.9%. This range for example, is already 11.6%: TT+,AJs+,KQs,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+ Alot of people will also squeeze suited aces, suited kings/queens, some more offsuit aces etc. It's almost impossible for a reg not to squeeze 10.9% in BB v BU/SB so we can pretty much always shove 22+ unless we have a better read telling us not to.

blablabla

On December 31 2009 09:02 def_jammer wrote: blablabla

So you think its +ev shove still?

On December 31 2009 09:05 LemOn[5thF] wrote: Show nested quote + On December 31 2009 09:02 def_jammer wrote: blablabla So you think its +ev shove still?

might as well shove 78s here, your cards dont matter

On December 31 2009 09:14 CrownRoyal wrote: Show nested quote + On December 31 2009 09:05 LemOn[5thF] wrote:   On December 31 2009 09:02 def_jammer wrote: blablabla So you think its +ev shove still? might as well shove 78s here, your cards dont matter

Of course they do

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 31.205% 31.00% 00.20% 131649548 863250.00 { 87s }
Hand 1: 68.795% 68.59% 00.20% 291275344 863250.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 36.090% 35.82% 00.27% 228193296 1690074.00 { 33 }
Hand 1: 63.910% 63.64% 00.27% 405403644 1690074.00 { TT+, AQs+, AQo+ }


You are using your PF EV in the EV equation for the shove, he has to fold larger % of the time when you shove 78s

your ranges are so bad

On December 31 2009 09:20 CrownRoyal wrote: your ranges are so bad

Those are Grindcore's ranges, what calling range do you assign to a squeezer when he gets backdoor shoved?

your hand is faceup, if someone is squeezing only that range you're losing so much money even thinking about this.

On December 31 2009 09:21 CrownRoyal wrote: your hand is faceup, if someone is squeezing only that range you're losing so much money even thinking about this.

That is his CALLING range, please read the quote in the third post......


And I strongly disagree that in my example my hand is face up, the original raiser is a nit with 100% fold to 3bet so far, I flat all monsters a decent amount of the time, which is obvious to anyone who realises whats goiong on

I think it's ok to shove once in a while with random hands. However i do agree with crown to a point where it doesn't matter what you shove if you are shoving with 33 here. Personaly i 4 bet here to like 25 or so (he's oop) and if he shoves i can probably just fold. If he has a very strong range he's calling your 33 shove obviously and you're big behind so why not just 4 bet and fold once he shoves, few people at NL100 are 5 bet shoving you at this point with air. I really think you have merrit with trying new things and all but sometimes you might be over analyzing hands and talking to much in a vacuum. Also if someone is squeezing with the range you're showing us here and they also percieve you as a huge aggro junkie then this is really bad. If i think you're an aggro monster i'm gonna snap you with AQ and 99+ in a lot of situations and if you're shoving with 33 here? I really think 4 bet is better.

small sample size.

end of story...

On December 31 2009 16:44 Fox wrote: I think it's ok to shove once in a while with random hands. However i do agree with crown to a point where it doesn't matter what you shove if you are shoving with 33 here. Personaly i 4 bet here to like 25 or so (he's oop) and if he shoves i can probably just fold. If he has a very strong range he's calling your 33 shove obviously and you're big behind so why not just 4 bet and fold once he shoves, few people at NL100 are 5 bet shoving you at this point with air. I really think you have merrit with trying new things and all but sometimes you might be over analyzing hands and talking to much in a vacuum. Also if someone is squeezing with the range you're showing us here and they also percieve you as a huge aggro junkie then this is really bad. If i think you're an aggro monster i'm gonna snap you with AQ and 99+ in a lot of situations and if you're shoving with 33 here? I really think 4 bet is better.

You wouldn't 3bet 99 and if you are snapping me with AQ and TT+ than the shove is always profitable if you have a reasonable squeezing range 10.9%+

i think this is pretty bad here, the best call you are facing is a coin flip.