does he have a high raise cbet?

haven't seen him do something like that yet

Can we do anything else but call without some crazy dynamic?

with what sort of plan Lemon?

Yeah turn and river are the question, not flop imo.

You didn't give any info that would suggest he is a confirmed nit or crazy, his value range is extremely narrow and at least somewhat discounted as we will expect a call from sets some of the time and our range is very wide, and a raise doesn't accomplish much => Call seems the only option on the flop?

he seems like a good reg. He knows he's repping little. He is not a nit.

3bet if you think he's bluffing or getting cute with KQ etc

I prolly 3bet the first time vs non nits

On December 18 2010 17:53 Night2o1 wrote: 3bet if you think he's bluffing or fold

what?
Why would you 3bet when he is polarised that makes no sense? Like 3bet call?

what is he going to raise and continue bluffing if you call and your hand is clearly Kx, AA or otherwise bluff catching

Is this for real?

yes learn 2 poker

nah but really it makes pretty good sense if u think about it

oh yah I do mean 3bet/call ofc 3bet fold LOL!

Guy is a monster nit. Fold.

On December 18 2010 17:59 Night2o1 wrote: yes learn 2 poker nah but really it makes pretty good sense if u think about it

It makes 0 sense

On December 18 2010 18:01 LemOn[5thF] wrote: Show nested quote + On December 18 2010 17:59 Night2o1 wrote: yes learn 2 poker nah but really it makes pretty good sense if u think about it It makes 0 sense

it make alot of sense , just think about it
it doesnt make sense in most pot but here it does
think about it

if he's bluffing flop why would he continue betting after you call his raise, you have only made hands in your range then and its obvious that you are putting him on a bluff isn't it?

if you 3bet, you don't have to actually have a hand. ducy

He has nuts or hands that you dominate.... You believe he will never bluff once you call so you will play turn always perfectly... So you 3bet, make him fold his bluffing hands of his polarised spectrum that he check folds anyway and give him value with his nuts?

That makes sense bro

min 3 bet, if he 4 bets, min 5 bet....

read my last post there I think we posted our replies at the same time

in response to your post though, '.. we can always play turn perfectly cuz he's not bluffing' -- we aren't playing poker to avoid losing money to his nut hands, we play it to maximize value each hand

So you count on that he knows that you know that he knows that his range is BS and expect an unknown reg without history to play back at you with air when you re-raise (or have somehow de-polarised raising range on flop)?

What else are you going to do? Just make tons of mistakes and reduce your potential for value if you call and continue playing oop especially.

no money anywhere everyone is solid

hum, my experience is the guy really doesn't get out of line very often at all
vs some i think it's an easy smallish 3bet expecting them to loljam a bunch of dominated hands, vs him i dunno...call and fold to a big turn bet prob.

If his range is polarised (as it should be almost always) and we expect him to fold the bluffing part of his range to a re-raise then re-raising accomplishes nothing and you could do it with any KX or 72o if you ignore card removal?

You guys actually expect an unknown reg without history at SSNL to ever have a fluid range here or to continue with his air when we raise UTG and cbet this board?

yes people will 4bshove bluffs or JJ type stuff here

so if we argue that raising this board is super polarizing to the point we would choose to bluff catch AK oop then AK essentially = QQ? or even further, since a set is one of the primary things he's repping, is 87 > AK here due to card removal?

Without history? Why the fuck would anyone raise JJ on this flop without history for value?

You guys are crazy.

And AK is the top of our range and blocks... AK -.-
And the top of standard bluffing range has much better equity against 78 and QQ than AK Keanu. If it is polarised calling AK will be better than calling 87.

they flat JJ pre and go "gay Khi board but he prolly doesn't have anything.. I'll just raise LOL makes it easy 2 play" then you 3bet and they go "wtf why do u 3bet? I have JJ I don't wanna fold, all in"

Oh. Yeah. I outlevel myself way too much. People are just retards.

it's really just simple progression
this spot gets raised, people assume it's polarized...board texture suggests villain doesn't have very many big hands, people bluff catch thin...villain realizes hero is bluff catching thin, villain plays KJ or similar aggro for value...hero realizes villain is playing marginal hands fast trying to steal aggro, hero 3bet bluffs expecting all air and many thin value hands (that makes up majority of villains range) to have to fold afraid to play for stacks...villain realizes hero is willing to 3bet flop light, villain stacks off thin...AK suddenly becomes the nuts like it was 5 years ago

nutty for sure, but i've seen this progression play out many times and the situation itself (cb gets raised) is extremely common...often this situation plays out between people that have very little history. against this guy i doubt it applies, he's somewhere between solid and nitty...vs others at NL200 on stars, i 3bet AK and stack off this flop every single time expecting to see KQ, KJ, or even air most of the time

On December 18 2010 18:28 LemOn[5thF] wrote: And AK is the top of our range and blocks... AK -.- And the top of standard bluffing range has much better equity against 78 and QQ than AK Keanu. If it is polarised calling AK will be better than calling 87.

im talking about the situation on the flop itself
assuming a polarized range, there are verrrry few hands villain can have that beat 78.

i guess a better question, if you think this is a polarized range, what is it polarized to? and if you had 78 do you call the raise?

Oh... get it. Why solid level 1 can beat MSNL these days ;o

thats way too cocky
you're not outleveling yourself, you're underleveling the competition

On December 18 2010 18:37 KeanuReaver wrote: Show nested quote + On December 18 2010 18:28 LemOn[5thF] wrote: And AK is the top of our range and blocks... AK -.- And the top of standard bluffing range has much better equity against 78 and QQ than AK Keanu. If it is polarised calling AK will be better than calling 87. im talking about the situation on the flop itself assuming a polarized range, there are verrrry few hands villain can have that beat 78. i guess a better question, if you think this is a polarized range, what is it polarized to? and if you had 78 do you call the raise?

If you'd think he plays optimally he is polarised to sets some AK and then the top of his folding range, like AQ with backdoor fd and you'd go down to AJ, QJ ... I'd call the raise depending on his frequencies but QQ would have priority over 78.


And in this spot level 1 play is the most optimal against most villains you say. In spots where they are 2 levels above you you will crush ;o

On December 18 2010 18:41 LemOn[5thF] wrote: Show nested quote + On December 18 2010 18:37 KeanuReaver wrote:   On December 18 2010 18:28 LemOn[5thF] wrote: And AK is the top of our range and blocks... AK -.- And the top of standard bluffing range has much better equity against 78 and QQ than AK Keanu. If it is polarised calling AK will be better than calling 87. im talking about the situation on the flop itself assuming a polarized range, there are verrrry few hands villain can have that beat 78. i guess a better question, if you think this is a polarized range, what is it polarized to? and if you had 78 do you call the raise? If you'd think he plays optimally he is polarised to sets some AK and then the top of his folding range, like AQ with backdoor fd and you'd go down to AJ, QJ ... I'd call the raise depending on his frequencies but QQ would have priority over 78. And in this spot level 1 play is the most optimal against most villains you say -.- In spots where they are 2 levels above you you will crush ;o

i was prob too harsh

but given the answer to the question, do you understand how a hand like KJ becomes raisable to him? then you simply reverse the scenario to see how a hand like KJ becomes stackable to him?

as for the leveling thing, it's not like it's circular always. leveling is really just the counter response to the level before it so occasionally it will wrap around but other times it wont. and no i didn't mean vs most villains, i meant vs specific villains...some villains bluff catching this spot with AK is absolutely the best idea, some villains calling flop and folding to extra heat is the best, some you wanna try to stack off on flop, and vs some you're kinda fucked.

Yeah that's why I was surprised that we expected a reg that doesn't know us and that never raised in this spot to raise and stack off with a fluid range...What do we expect him to respond to when he doesn't know how we play?

You can win by playing level 1 when random regs are on level 3 ;o

a lot of regs will run the progression in their heads and do shit like this at random without history
some regs are bad, or they just get addicted to a certain style of play that they can't get away from.

Sound like me :/

interesting answers. i really think these particular spots are the most important in poker, and what really seperate the b/e players from the winners.