Submitted by : WaterFlow

PokerStars Game #58732602585: Holdem No Limit ($0.50/$1.00 USD) - 2011/03/06 0:03:56 ET
Table Granule VIII 6-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: mensaman26 ($82.85 in chips)
Seat 2: Scarer ($100 in chips)
Seat 3: bleurain ($159.05 in chips)
Seat 4: XwhutevaX ($100 in chips)
Seat 5: Hero ($111.45 in chips)
Seat 6: Pokerlusky ($133.90 in chips)
Hero: posts small blind $0.50
Pokerlusky: posts big blind $1

Holecards(Odds)
Dealt to Hero
mensaman26: folds
Scarer: raises $2 to $3
bleurain: folds
XwhutevaX: calls $3
Hero: calls $2.50
Pokerlusky: folds

Flop(Odds) (Pot : $10.00)

   
Hero: checks
Scarer: bets $6.65
XwhutevaX: raises $18.35 to $25
Hero: folds
Scarer: raises $40.65 to $65.65
XwhutevaX: raises $31.35 to $97 and is all-in
Scarer: calls $31.35 and is all-in

Turn(Odds) (Pot : $204.00)

   

River (Pot : $204.00)

   

Showdown
Scarer: shows (a pair of Nines)
XwhutevaX: shows (a straight, Nine to King)
XwhutevaX collected $201 from pot

Summary
Total pot $204 | Rake $3
Board  
Seat 1: mensaman26 folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 2: Scarer showed and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 3: bleurain folded before Flop (didnt bet)
Seat 4: XwhutevaX (button) showed and won ($201) with a straight, Nine to King
Seat 5: Hero (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 6: Pokerlusky (big blind) folded before Flop

nit life or std?

Seems good. Your straight draw outs are shit anyway. I'd fold this pre too

folding pre? wat

I used to call religiously with these hands until I used HEM filters and saw how I was actually doing in spots like these with these types of hands. I was leaking lots, and I'm sure the vast majority of people are leaking tons calling with these hands, it's even worse from the SB being in the worst position and still having a BB active too

And would you call with 86o too? Do you really think flopping an 8 high flush draw is worth all that much? You flop a flush 1% of the time, mayaswell call with 72o too cause that can flop trips like 2% of the time and a fullhouse some small % too!

Your straight draws suck nobsacks, your flush draw eats cock, whenever you make a pair your pair is gonna be the 95th pair on board and you rarely make anything big anyway. Furthermore you're oop without initiative and you're virtually never gonna win the hand without showdown =.= Dunno why people think these are slamdunk calls, go take a look in your HEM filters yo

But Dwan would call here.

so do i fold small pairs too

No, small pairs flop a much bigger hand when they connect and they connect more often

Yeah dwan would call here, MANY people would call here, VERY few are able to make the call profitable though. Certainly calling just to hit flops is not going to be profitable, you don't hit hard enough or often enough. I mean look at the hand in question, we flopped a double gutter with a flush draw, this is one of the best flops we can hope for with this hand, and if we had got it in on the flop we'd have been basically drawing dead. So we had to fold one of the best flops for our hand and most of the rest of the time we flop nothing and fold, we're just bleeding 3bb off a huge % of the time and when we do finally hit something and get it all in we'll rarely be crushing anyway

What range of hands would you normally condone calling in this exact spot?

Disciplined fold.

Don't get me wrong, there are some people who can make this call profitable, play with HEM filters and see if YOU can. I'm fairly certain flatting these hands oop even multiway is not a winning proposition for the vast majority of players, it wasn't for me anyway. I'd prob be calling suited broadways and pocket pair for the most part I guess, I'd prob squeeze a large amount of the hands I'd choose to play anyway. It does depend on the people in the pot too though, I guess you can make a call with 86s or similar hands profitable if there's someone that's utterly atrocious in the pot

Most of the people who can make calling 86s profitable here are not looking to play fit or fold either, if you watch Tom Dwan play, he isn't calling 86s just to flop 2pair+, he's finding profitable bluffing opportunities, making good hero calls, and good laydowns. Most people who call here call because they think it's a great "implied odds" hand, I completely disagree, you hit something good very infrequently, and very often flop a naked crap flush draw or naked crap straight draw or crap pair, all of which are really tough to play and quite often cost you money rather than make you money, especially if you're forced to play them passively

seems right

On March 06 2011 00:01 PoorUser wrote: seems right

i really like how insightful midian is about the preflop here but if u dont mind would u also discuss that

p.s. midian im in no way underestimating your opinion id just want to see more point of views of people like you

this is an eye opener for me

midian i really appreciate your thoughts on this hand and im going to re-evaluate my calls with these type of hands (i only do it in multi-way pots).. but regardless i think you might be onto something and anything to take my game to the next level is much appreciated.

at least OOP...

On March 06 2011 00:35 Spitfiree wrote: Show nested quote + On March 06 2011 00:01 PoorUser wrote: seems right i really like how insightful midian is about the preflop here but if u dont mind would u also discuss that p.s. midian im in no way undermining your underestimating your opinion id just want to see more point of views of people like you

defending suited gapped connectors oop is going to be bad unless you're monstering post flop

midian is completely right IMO the 86s is a fold if not 3bet and it's very bad if most 100nl players think this is a call that makes them money

i'd even go as far to say that most ssnl players would likely be better off folding JQs and JTs here too

wow i rly shouldnt post when im 24hrs+ up edited my post and tnx
thats kind of a leak for me

On March 06 2011 01:52 PanoRaMa wrote: i'd even go as far to say that most ssnl players would likely be better off folding JQs and JTs here too

jqs would be a good 3bet bluff here :O. blockers to jj and qq, AQ

Solid hand discussion, plz give me mooooar in the future!!

On March 06 2011 04:00 johnmagi wrote: Solid hand discussion, plz give me mooooar in the future!!

True, Im gonna move it to forum section so more people can get something out of it - other way it's gonna sink in hand poster within an hour.

hardly a monster draw. I'd rather 3bet and beast up rather than flat in the sb also

your draw isnt very good facing that action on this board texture, this is a preety standard fold ;-0

folding something like 78s, or QT here is also fine

good insight midian!

I think im leaking in spots like this. What is the minimum you should call with IP with a raise and call in front? I have been calling with 75s etc, now im thinking its probably just better off to fold

On March 06 2011 01:51 PanoRaMa wrote: midian is completely right IMO the 86s is a fold if not 3bet and it's very bad if most 100nl players think this is a call that makes them money

On March 06 2011 07:03 Defrag wrote: Show nested quote + On March 06 2011 04:00 johnmagi wrote: Solid hand discussion, plz give me mooooar in the future!! True, Im gonna move it to forum section so more people can get something out of it - other way it's gonna sink in hand poster within an hour.

gj moving it

don't post results right away imo

midian is right ofc, 86s oop is not a hand that has great implied odds unless there is some major fish in the hand where flopping 2p or even 1 pair is gonna prove +EV. As for the flop here you dont have a monster draw at all, you have a weak flush draw with a gutter that might not even be a factor, very likely you are dominated so you correctly fold.

why i felt the need to chime in to a topic with 32 replies already i dont know...

In case it matters I didn't make this a thread or make the thread title. I never said I had a monster draw. I just posted a hand and asked "nit life or std" and it got like 20+ replies because of midian and others good advice so a mod decided to make it a forum topic for further discussion.

i would call this pf against a lot of ppl tbh...very few ppl i fold this to.

vs 2 solid regs this is a snapfold but then why are u even playing in a game with that many good players eh?

On March 07 2011 13:29 n0rthf4ce wrote: vs 2 solid regs this is a snapfold but then why are u even playing in a game with that many good players eh?

yeah EH

midian is 100% spot on.

would make sense to call from bb a bit loose since you're getting better direct odds + less chance of getting squeezed/gayed/owned.

but generally just weak hands OOP is just bad to play.

ugh i should start reading threads first before making comments ;(. just repeated what like 2 other people said. disregard my last post plz