do u bet here? if so, dou call a shove?

I feel like betting here is totally villain dependent... idk.
villain is unknown btw

I wouldn't 3b this spot vs unknown. As played I'd bet big and call the shove.

On June 10 2011 01:18 Jhyun88 wrote: I wouldn't 3b this spot vs unknown. As played I'd bet big and call the shove.

why not 3bet? he is on the BU, I'm on the BB, looks like a great spot to generate some action a history vs a unknown. if he 4bet I can easly fold...

what u think?

he is on the BU, I'm on the BB, looks like a great spot to generate some action a history vs a unknown

so u are willing to generate action and u dont want to bet here ?

bet/call note

didnt you post an article about 3 betting the other day....doesnt look like you understood it

On June 10 2011 01:25 szogunMMA wrote: Show nested quote + he is on the BU, I'm on the BB, looks like a great spot to generate some action a history vs a unknown so u are willing to generate action and u dont want to bet here ? bet/call note

I mean to generate FUTURE action... like if I get KK in the BB and he raises me, its more likely that he wont believe in the second time.

On June 10 2011 01:26 julep wrote: didnt you post an article about 3 betting the other day....doesnt look like you understood it

well I think I understood and I'm gonna try to explain my tought here.
Villain is totally unknown, so I'm not aware of his tedencies, and the only way to find out is trying
Ppl in general fold a lot to 3bet, thats the main reason why 3betting can be so profitable if done right.

JT is a hand that has neutral EV when is delt to me in the BB, cause I'm gonna fold it 90% of the time, except the cases of family pots I guess.
By 3betting I'm generaly adding EV to my cards, I expect to get a fold most of the time, if not pf, usually I will get a fold with a cbet, thats the general assuption when playing against a unkown.

I would to hear from u if you think I said something wrong, thanks.

On June 10 2011 01:08 tutz_x wrote: do u bet here? if so, dou call a shove? I feel like betting here is totally villain dependent... idk. villain is unknown btw

i think flop is a good spot to not cbet and rep AK. i did read the article you from 2+2 and if you recall it states that usually people at these limits defend pocket pairs.

no pocket pair is gonna fold on an 8 high board. would you barrel AK here on this board? (i hope the answer is no) likewise this is a good spot to let the hand go.

if you are going to stab i prefer making it half pot as air will usually fold anyway, and pairs will call anyway.

as played i would c/f turn as i don't think he will be going to v-bet anything less than JJ's and even then only 1 street esp against an unknown.

if you think he can bluff turn then obv c/call turn and c/f river imo

On June 10 2011 01:45 patti wrote: Show nested quote + On June 10 2011 01:08 tutz_x wrote: do u bet here? if so, dou call a shove? I feel like betting here is totally villain dependent... idk. villain is unknown btw i think flop is a good spot to not cbet and rep AK. i did read the article you from 2+2 and if you recall it states that usually people at these limits defend pocket pairs. no pocket pair is gonna fold on an 8 high board. would you barrel AK here on this board? (i hope the answer is no) likewise this is a good spot to let the hand go. if you are going to stab i prefer making it half pot as air will usually fold anyway, and pairs will call anyway. as played i would c/f turn as i don't think he will be going to v-bet anything less than JJ's and even then only 1 street esp against an unknown. if you think he can bluff turn then obv c/call turn and c/f river imo

what.... lol your post confuses me in so many ways....

1: "i think flop is a good spot to not cbet and rep AK" right, so I'm gonna rep AK (with means nothing), so I'm just gonna give up... do you mind telling me why?
2: " i did read the article you from 2+2 and if you recall it states that usually people at these limits defend pocket pairs." why in earth should I put him on a pocket pair?
3: with all due respect, do u mind telling me witch site and stake u play?

thanks..

4: yes I would barrel AK at least two streets on a board like this VS a unknown all day long

what hand calls flop and decides to fold turn?

sure 3 betting by itself is +ev, but you have no idea what his range/how tight he is/how wide he is calling flops etc. this is demonstrated by not knowing what to do on an awesome board for your hand

On June 10 2011 01:54 julep wrote: sure 3 betting by itself is +ev, but you have no idea what his range/how tight he is/how wide he is calling flops etc. this is demonstrated by not knowing what to do on an awesome board for your hand

I knews what to do, I'm posting here to generate some discussion and hear different opnions
I did bet, villain folded

On June 10 2011 01:54 patti wrote: what hand calls flop and decides to fold turn?

a gazillion, depends on how fishy villain is
a standad player should fold 33-55, 76, 8x, 77, 99, floats, flushdraws.
I expect a shove on the turn from sets, TT+ and ATdd only
sets and TT are unlikely, QQ+ I expect him to 4bet pf, ATdd or any combo draw would probably raise my flop bet, so his shoving range is VERY VERY narrow

ur play is very good from your assumptions than no?

the only thing i may add is that c/calling may provide more value if he decides to turn his hand into a bluff. betting smaller on turn may also induce bluffs or get a crying call as well, as based on your analysis you don't expect many turn calls if any when you remove higher pp's that 4 bet pre as well as his shoving range.

i was under the impression that he was a random/avg player and in my opinion they usually flat/defend pocket pairs against 3 bets.

i 3bet bigger preflop. gotta make em pay for position.

i bet turn and river for value. I havnt played nl50 in a long time but i'm pretty sure most regs would be getting JJ+ here in preflop. So whatever they are calling with on the flop is a much weaker range than your hand.

So you 3bet this hand against this unknown to get some good future image going. So at the moment he probably does not think you are very agressive or crazy.
So by betting the turn, you represent a really strong range here of which a T is probably the very bottom.
On the other hand, from the perspective of a unknown reg, if you dont bet, your hand very likely looks like 2 overcards that gave up, after cbetting. So i think this is a definitive check.
You induce the greatest amount of mistakes here, because you missrepresent your hand.
And as you already said, this would be a good double barrel bluff with air.

He isn't a fullstack, so there is a big chance that he is not a regular and 3betting for the sake of metagame is simply wrong.

Now I love trying and testing (full-stacked, regular looking) people when I sit down, you know that, and I sort of have the same approach as you, but we need to think about a correct range to do it with

See when you 3bet a hand like TJo oop when people fold a lot to 3bets and presumably call with high broadways, you are creating a situation where you are always dominated and you never dominate them, out of position. Also your hand is offsuit so you can't hit flush draws and back door flush draws which takes out significant barelling options. So although it might seem like a good hand to 3bet with-higher end of your folding range, 2 blockers, straight potential, I don't think it really is when you consider postflop and not just one street.


If I'd want to 3bet light I'd look for a polarized range where the top of my range dominates stuff like QJs QTs KQ that peple call with and at the same time I have hands with good barreling potential that aren't dominated easily that you don't want to flat preflop, like low AXs (I presume you know when to fold when you hit an Ace, and the pots with it on board usually play straightforward) mid scs, then I'd add gappers, low pocket pairs (if you don't think flatting is profitable, I'd look in my database) and value part of my range TT+ AQo+AJs+KQs. I'd flat with ATo, KQo A8s-ATs and suited broadways and mid pps.Thoughts?

I am watching an epic series on ABC play and I am not yet at 3betting, but from the general philosophy they teach this is the range I'd guess will be decent.
EDIT: It's amateur to pro at Bluefire, and the student plays NL200-400 now. I was surprised that solid ABC game works that high

You seem to have a very similar thought process to me, where I think about villain, his range and metagame and how to not be weak first and about my own range and hand strenght last, if even at all in many spots.

On June 10 2011 03:59 LemOn[5thF] wrote: He isn't a fullstack, so there is a big chance that he is not a regular and 3betting for the sake of metagame is simply wrong. Now I love trying and testing (full-stacked, regular looking) people when I sit down, you know that, and I sort of have the same approach as you, but we need to think about a correct range to do it with See when you 3bet a hand like TJo oop when people fold a lot to 3bets and presumably call with high broadways, you are creating a situation where you are always dominated and you never dominate them, out of position. Also your hand is offsuit so you can't hit flush draws and back door flush draws which takes out significant barelling options. So although it might seem like a good hand to 3bet with-higher end of your folding range, 2 blockers, straight potential, I don't think it really is when you consider postflop and not just one street. If I'd want to 3bet light I'd look for a polarized range where the top of my range dominates stuff like QJs QTs KQ that peple call with and at the same time I have hands with good barreling potential that aren't dominated easily that you don't want to flat preflop, like low AXs (I presume you know when to fold when you hit an Ace, and the pots with it on board usually play straightforward) mid scs, then I'd add gappers, low pocket pairs (if you don't think flatting is profitable, I'd look in my database) and value part of my range TT+ AQo+AJs+KQs. I'd flat with ATo, KQo A8s-ATs and suited broadways and mid pps.Thoughts? I am watching an epic series on ABC play and I am not yet at 3betting, but from the general philosophy they teach this is the range I'd guess will be decent. EDIT: It's amateur to pro at Bluefire, and the student plays NL200-400 now. I was surprised that solid ABC game works that high You seem to have a very similar thought process to me, where I think about villain, his range and metagame and how to not be weak first and about my own range and hand strenght last, if even at all in many spots.

solid abc game works up to nl5000 and above, because solid poker is good poker.

it looks spewy to me to 3bet this against an unknown fish. Id be not too thrilled playing the lowest broadway hand in a 3bet pot OOP without history. you can just call comfortably because he raised so small.