PRE
do you flat JJ v total unknown when they 3b your UTG?
My plan is always what I did in the hand, I'm not sure if it isn't better to just pitch it

FLOP
I always feel like I have to call one against QQ+AK
TURN RVR
no air is checking this turn, this is a vbet like....always?

pre - yes
flop - agree
turn/river - mostly agree, i think people can bluff sometimes here but mostly it's AK or something for value that beats you

you don't have to call flop here. Their cbet size is big and its extremely difficult to call any extra bet they make after the flop.

On July 20 2011 10:40 Stroggoz wrote: you don't have to call flop here. Their cbet size is big and its extremely difficult to call any extra bet they make after the flop.

we're not intending to call any extra bet after the flop anyway though

On July 20 2011 12:59 bigredhoss wrote: Show nested quote + On July 20 2011 10:40 Stroggoz wrote: you don't have to call flop here. Their cbet size is big and its extremely difficult to call any extra bet they make after the flop. we're not intending to call any extra bet after the flop anyway though

So basically you call your 2 outer in a 3bet pot without knowing if set of jacks is good and pray vilain give up if you miss ?
Am I correct ?
Winning strategy for sure

So how do you play it waga? Just pitch flop? We are ahead of 16 combos of QQ+ AK and behind 15... Seems like we have to call flop.

On July 20 2011 14:13 waga wrote: Show nested quote + On July 20 2011 12:59 bigredhoss wrote:   On July 20 2011 10:40 Stroggoz wrote: you don't have to call flop here. Their cbet size is big and its extremely difficult to call any extra bet they make after the flop. we're not intending to call any extra bet after the flop anyway though So basically you call your 2 outer in a 3bet pot without knowing if set of jacks is good and pray vilain give up if you miss ? Am I correct ? Winning strategy for sure

i'm not trying to be rude, but you might want to re-read your post because i have no idea what you're trying to say.

bleh I'm too drunk and my english sux too much
call flop , give up turn , with only ~2 outs is EV-

On July 20 2011 15:55 Almebeast wrote: So how do you play it waga? Just pitch flop? We are ahead of 16 combos of QQ+ AK and behind 15... Seems like we have to call flop.

If your plan is to call flop , fold turn , then 4bet/ call is superior
and it's not even close

On July 20 2011 16:23 waga wrote: Show nested quote + On July 20 2011 15:55 Almebeast wrote: So how do you play it waga? Just pitch flop? We are ahead of 16 combos of QQ+ AK and behind 15... Seems like we have to call flop. If your plan is to call flop , fold turn , then 4bet/ call is superior and it's not even close

wat

usually i agree with stuff you write but this seems really obviously wrong to me.

calling flop gains value from AK and the occasional crap he decided to 3-bet and cbet with. even if we eliminate the crap from his range we still have enough equity vs a range of AK/QQ+ to make flop an easy call.

on the other hand, 4-bet-calling JJ pre vs a range of AK/QQ+ is bad of course...

1) vilain will bluff a decent % of the time on the turn
2) vilain will improve a decent % of the time on the turn
3) if you call JJ , call 66 too
I'm sure you fold 66 and JJ isn't really superior to 66 if you call flop fold turn , JJ beats TT but I doubt vilain 3bet a UTG raise with TT
4) AK/QQ+ ?????

On July 20 2011 17:01 waga wrote: 1) vilain will bluff a decent % of the time on the turn

a random villain is very very rarely bluffing the turn if he doesn't pick up more outs, very confident in saying less than 10% of the time on average, esp when villain has this betsize.

2) vilain will improve a decent % of the time on the turn

so what? obviously we take into account the equity AK has against us when we call flop and it's still a call.

3) if you call JJ , call 66 too. I'm sure you fold 66 and JJ isn't really superior to 66 if you call flop fold turn , JJ beats TT but I doubt vilain 3bet a UTG raise with TT

well i'm folding 66 pre almost always, but if i call pre for some reason then of course i'm calling this particular flop w/66. why would you 4-bet-call JJ pre if he's not 3-betting TT? (i agree that villain 3-betting TT would be bad in his position, but plenty of people do it)

people also sometimes 3-bet AJo or KJo or QJo or some crap in spots like these too because they watched some video about blockers, and sometimes 3-bet stuff like 99-TT because they don't think about ranges or want to "find out where they're at" b/c it's 50nl.

4) AK/QQ+ ?????

yeah? seems like a standard stack-off range for someone 3-betting an utg open.

Well ... it's why we are not agree , you are very confident vilain doesn't bluff turn with AK , and FD , I'm very confident they do it enough to make it a call EV-
and yeah there are more AQ AJ KJ KQ in his range than TT
JJ has 36% against QQ,AK+ , you don't need a huge FE to make a 4bet/ call +EV