Submitted by : Joe

PokerStars Game #73512563904: Holdem No Limit ($3/$6 USD) - 2012/01/08 20:41:03 CET [2012/01/08 14:41:03 ET]
Table Kochera IV 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: Bondar6 ($1868.55 in chips)
Seat 2: Mikeyy17 ($1708.90 in chips)
Seat 3: Phantomes124 ($1405 in chips)
Seat 4: 2PairWind ($615 in chips)
Seat 5: MarGee1 ($1211.20 in chips)
Seat 6: Joeik ($689 in chips)
Joeik: posts small blind $3
Bondar6: posts big blind $6
Bondar6: posts the ante $1.20
Mikeyy17: posts the ante $1.20
Phantomes124: posts the ante $1.20
2PairWind: posts the ante $1.20
MarGee1: posts the ante $1.20
Joeik: posts the ante $1.20

Holecards
Dealt to Joeik
Mikeyy17: folds
Phantomes124: folds
2PairWind: raises $12 to $18
MarGee1: folds
Joeik: calls $15
Bondar6: calls $12

Flop (Pot : $54.00)

   
Joeik: checks
Bondar6: checks
2PairWind: bets $42
Joeik: raises $60 to $102
Bondar6: calls $102
2PairWind: folds

Turn (Pot : $300.00)

   
Joeik: bets $156
Bondar6: calls $156

River (Pot : $612.00)

   
Joeik: ?

Isn't this just an auto shove or am I missing something?

What range do you give him after flop overcall?

It's bondar. just ship it. If he checks back trip kings or lower flush, that's pwned of the century.

yea i intentionally didnt include that he is a fish. I mean what to do here in general or vs a reg basically.

and more interestingly, if we have like 100-130% pot left.

On January 08 2012 13:50 Joe wrote: What range do you give him after flop overcall?

Stubbornness mainly

On January 08 2012 13:48 Maynard! wrote: Isn't this just an auto shove or am I missing something?

100-130 pot left still shove vs pretty much anyone, as it keeps growing it should eventually reach a bet/fold point but this certainly cant be it imho.

or wait are you asking about c/r for value? Im confused now ^^

Well I personally dislike your play.

as standard I don't think check/raise on this flop texture as SB vs button raise+BB is optimal. It's a flop where button will fire 100% or very high c-bet and specially with a mark on the BB, you wouldn't want to squeeze him out with your hand. Leading is the best play here. Even if BB isn't the mark, wind would need very strong hand to call your raise on the flop and give you more action on the turn.

Regarding the action on the river, I think c/f is SLIGHTLY better then betting if you think his range is only 44 88 and flushes. He has to be folding flushes some % of the time on the river to your bet.

oh wow I completely misread the flop action, sry :O

if BB isnt a fish i hate calling preflop here as well with your stacksize.

On January 08 2012 15:12 AndrewSong wrote: Well I personally dislike your play. as standard I don't think check/raise on this flop texture as SB vs button raise+BB is optimal. It's a flop where button will fire 100% or very high c-bet and specially with a mark on the BB, you wouldn't want to squeeze him out with your hand. Leading is the best play here. Even if BB isn't the mark, wind would need very strong hand to call your raise on the flop and give you more action on the turn. Regarding the action on the river, I think c/f is SLIGHTLY better then betting if you think his range is only 44 88 and flushes. He has to be folding flushes some % of the time on the river to your bet.

I agree with this, I hate check raising flop as a stanadrd, I'd like it with a hand like AdXx, I think river is close, prob a jam since its only 50% pot - although I'm crying here

On January 08 2012 15:24 nolan wrote: if BB isnt a fish i hate calling preflop here as well with your stacksize.

;-0 I flat here against almost 100% of opponents near 100% of the time

On January 08 2012 15:50 TalentedTom wrote: Show nested quote + On January 08 2012 15:24 nolan wrote: if BB isnt a fish i hate calling preflop here as well with your stacksize. ;-0 I flat here against almost 100% of opponents near 100% of the time

id be surprised if this shows a legitimate long term profit vs competent opponents.

how much would u guys lead flop with?

;-0

On January 08 2012 17:27 nolan wrote: Show nested quote + On January 08 2012 15:50 TalentedTom wrote:   On January 08 2012 15:24 nolan wrote: if BB isnt a fish i hate calling preflop here as well with your stacksize. ;-0 I flat here against almost 100% of opponents near 100% of the time id be surprised if this shows a legitimate long term profit vs competent opponents.

this comment amazes me, its a super clear +EV spot, I'd say the breakeven point would be like JTs OOP

On January 08 2012 17:53 TalentedTom wrote: Show nested quote + On January 08 2012 17:27 nolan wrote:   On January 08 2012 15:50 TalentedTom wrote:   On January 08 2012 15:24 nolan wrote: if BB isnt a fish i hate calling preflop here as well with your stacksize. ;-0 I flat here against almost 100% of opponents near 100% of the time id be surprised if this shows a legitimate long term profit vs competent opponents. this comment amazes me, its a super clear +EV spot, I'd say the breakeven point would be like JTs OOP

It shouldn't amaze you tom. It's not close to "super clear EV" spot. More like breakeven at best. If you think JTs is breakeven point, you have some preflop leak on your SB.

Not saying ATs should be a fold. I personally call at least half the time and 3b/fold the rest. It obviously depends who raised the CO and who's in the BB.

On January 08 2012 18:18 AndrewSong wrote: Show nested quote + On January 08 2012 17:53 TalentedTom wrote:   On January 08 2012 17:27 nolan wrote:   On January 08 2012 15:50 TalentedTom wrote:   On January 08 2012 15:24 nolan wrote: if BB isnt a fish i hate calling preflop here as well with your stacksize. ;-0 I flat here against almost 100% of opponents near 100% of the time id be surprised if this shows a legitimate long term profit vs competent opponents. this comment amazes me, its a super clear +EV spot, I'd say the breakeven point would be like JTs OOP It shouldn't amaze you tom. It's not close to "super clear EV" spot. More like breakeven at best. If you think JTs is breakeven point, you have some preflop leak on your SB.

Agree with this, but I'm also a much bigger nit compared to most regs when it comes to oop flats

what hands u r flatting oop then?

Raising is better sometimes, but flatting is >>>>>> folding and thus super clear +EV.

On January 08 2012 18:18 AndrewSong wrote: Show nested quote + On January 08 2012 17:53 TalentedTom wrote:   On January 08 2012 17:27 nolan wrote:   On January 08 2012 15:50 TalentedTom wrote:   On January 08 2012 15:24 nolan wrote: if BB isnt a fish i hate calling preflop here as well with your stacksize. ;-0 I flat here against almost 100% of opponents near 100% of the time id be surprised if this shows a legitimate long term profit vs competent opponents. this comment amazes me, its a super clear +EV spot, I'd say the breakeven point would be like JTs OOP It shouldn't amaze you tom. It's not close to "super clear EV" spot. More like breakeven at best. If you think JTs is breakeven point, you have some preflop leak on your SB.

uhh this is a off the top of my head rough estimation for SB flatting ranges vs CO openers

The less chance of the bb squeezing the more +ev the call obv. Theres so many factors that weigh in, I dont think its fair to say that flatting A10s SB vs CO is a "breakeven at best" play. Maybe in highstakes but not mid.

Suited aces make me wet

On January 09 2012 14:41 JonnyCosMo wrote: Suited aces make me wet

this

On January 09 2012 21:52 RoyCe 4otZ wrote: Show nested quote + On January 09 2012 14:41 JonnyCosMo wrote: Suited aces make me wet this

What she said

On January 08 2012 18:18 AndrewSong wrote: Show nested quote + On January 08 2012 17:53 TalentedTom wrote:   On January 08 2012 17:27 nolan wrote:   On January 08 2012 15:50 TalentedTom wrote:   On January 08 2012 15:24 nolan wrote: if BB isnt a fish i hate calling preflop here as well with your stacksize. ;-0 I flat here against almost 100% of opponents near 100% of the time id be surprised if this shows a legitimate long term profit vs competent opponents. this comment amazes me, its a super clear +EV spot, I'd say the breakeven point would be like JTs OOP It shouldn't amaze you tom. It's not close to "super clear EV" spot. More like breakeven at best. If you think JTs is breakeven point, you have some preflop leak on your SB.

I know you are gonna get outplayed a decent amount of the time, and at least at my level check fold often on a good portion of flops. But i feel like you get yourself into so many dominant spots vs a reg co open range. Probably a overly simplistic view, but between dominant spots, and varying up your flop play I feel like its easy to show a profit here at least up to 400nl. (with ATs)

On January 08 2012 15:12 AndrewSong wrote: as standard I don't think check/raise on this flop texture as SB vs button raise+BB is optimal. It's a flop where button will fire 100% or very high c-bet and specially with a mark on the BB, you wouldn't want to squeeze him out with your hand. Leading is the best play here. Even if BB isn't the mark, wind would need very strong hand to call your raise on the flop and give you more action on the turn.

c/r seems silly to me as well. It's interesting that you said you like leading the flop. What other hands would you lead here with for balance? I tend to take passive lines with all my holdings on this type of board.

i think leading can be good because people dont know what we are leading as we dont have to do it always. but we dont really get bluff raised on the flop that much. which is actually an arguement for me wanting to lead like KTss and just get monies from the fish and make the hand really easy to play. U can even maybe eventually turn it into a bluff vs some regs if they call but alas i dont know that its the best line with KT or with the nuts in this spot. Have to think more about it. I disagree people just cbet this board 90+% here, i know i dont but maybe i should. Because i think KT can eventually be turned into a bluff against some regs i think we are never getting raised on this board by the reg almost ever. Which makes it pretty silly to lead ATs imo as checkraise river will get called a decent amount (tho most of the time when the boards paired a checkcall will probably be better).

im feeling extra ballsy giving real thought processes now that i only play on a smurf account and dont think ill get exploited ^^

for balance not having a checkraising range on this board until the river is a pretty good way to play the hand vs regs but theres exceptions. its pretty cool to checkcall this flop btw as the fish prob has like 10%+ checkraise on this flop. they get silly with like KTo with no diamond a good amount.

this is an actual interesting thread for once

i really like song's posts and agree that most regs cbet a ton here in the CO's spot. however, i think c/c > lead > c/r for reasons doomer stated but it seems really close. also, i never really fold this pre either like tom but maybe i should start to now that nolan said so

--- Nuked ---

wheeeeeeee! thread resurrection!

as for the hand...how has no one touched on the fact that the turn sizing is bad? he has coldcalled you, clearly is not drawing to the nut flush and clearly has a good hand, yet you bet...1/2 pot!? 256 on the turn and the river is an easy shove. also i agree leading is better than c/r or c/c with a fish in the bb, but since we lucked out with a little fishie in the middle we should take advantage and bomb turn.

On May 17 2012 00:39 n0rthf4ce wrote: wheeeeeeee! thread resurrection! as for the hand...how has no one touched on the fact that the turn sizing is bad? he has coldcalled you, clearly is not drawing to the nut flush and clearly has a good hand, yet you bet...1/2 pot!? 256 on the turn and the river is an easy shove. also i agree leading is better than c/r or c/c with a fish in the bb, but since we lucked out with a little fishie in the middle we should take advantage and bomb turn.

he could go a little bigger but u gotta atleast make it look like its possible ur bluff shoving river. not have like half pot lol

On May 18 2012 16:02 DooMeR wrote: Show nested quote + On May 17 2012 00:39 n0rthf4ce wrote: wheeeeeeee! thread resurrection! as for the hand...how has no one touched on the fact that the turn sizing is bad? he has coldcalled you, clearly is not drawing to the nut flush and clearly has a good hand, yet you bet...1/2 pot!? 256 on the turn and the river is an easy shove. also i agree leading is better than c/r or c/c with a fish in the bb, but since we lucked out with a little fishie in the middle we should take advantage and bomb turn. he could go a little bigger but u gotta atleast make it look like its possible ur bluff shoving river. not have like half pot lol

calculate it. 256 is the perfect turn sizing.

also once we get cold-called it should be pretty obvious we are not bluffing the turn when we bet. we need to bet big to get value.

Seems incredibly better for our range to c/c flop and turn with everything then to occasionally turn stuff into bluffs on the river as long as they don't know we r doing it. I'm just talking about general gameplan when reg vs reg though.

holy shit wait is there no fish in this hand? i was operating the entire time under the pretense that BB was a fish.

as i said before i also agree that vs regs u shouldnt have anything but a checkcall range on this board on flop and turn for balance and its prob the most +EV by a good margin anyway in a vaccum vs regs nowadays

On May 21 2012 14:40 n0rthf4ce wrote: also once we get cold-called it should be pretty obvious we are not bluffing the turn when we bet. we need to bet big to get value.

see the whole logic behind that is bad in games nowadays. essentially it just proves that checkcall is far and away superior as everything were getting value from is going to be betting itself. ur never getting hero'd vs regs if u lead and barrel 3 times, or if u checkraise at anypoint but the river. so checkcall is the best line. best for balance and best for value

On May 22 2012 01:16 DooMeR wrote: Show nested quote + On May 21 2012 14:40 n0rthf4ce wrote: also once we get cold-called it should be pretty obvious we are not bluffing the turn when we bet. we need to bet big to get value. see the whole logic behind that is bad in games nowadays. essentially it just proves that checkcall is far and away superior as everything were getting value from is going to be betting itself. ur never getting hero'd vs regs if u lead and barrel 3 times, or if u checkraise at anypoint but the river. so checkcall is the best line. best for balance and best for value

One trend I'm starting to notice is that many of the good regs are multi barreling this board both less frequently as a bluff, and also less frequently for thin value. Curious of you are noticing the same thing?

It makes sense though if we are always going c/c c/c c/r that they should be firing river far less often....this leads me to the conclusion that if those assumptions are true, we want to start c/r'ing turn and jamming rivers regardless of the card....

Thoughts?

ye i do agree. i do just as u mentioned personally. its tough when people take such passive lines and are sometimes capable of turning hands into bluffs. which is why its so nice to have a pretty balanced range when your in that spot. ive thought about the situation too a lot but not sure what i like to directly exploit things. if they are barreling less bluffing more should be the opposite of what we want to do imo. i dont think people 2barrel this board and give up much. i dont have deep thoughts about the spot in general atm though. been up for 24hours so im surprised i got that much out. rain check while i try to come up with something more intellegent.

On May 22 2012 01:16 DooMeR wrote: Show nested quote + On May 21 2012 14:40 n0rthf4ce wrote: also once we get cold-called it should be pretty obvious we are not bluffing the turn when we bet. we need to bet big to get value. see the whole logic behind that is bad in games nowadays. essentially it just proves that checkcall is far and away superior as everything were getting value from is going to be betting itself. ur never getting hero'd vs regs if u lead and barrel 3 times, or if u checkraise at anypoint but the river. so checkcall is the best line. best for balance and best for value

im on the peachy train for two reasons. setting up your entire range to be c/c c/c c/r sucks and is murderable for anyone good. second there is this stupid idea that every non 3b pot, your goal is to make the pot such that on the river you are shoving for around pot. sometimes 1/2 or 1/3 potting turn to set that up is bad [when you have a wide value range that is very susceptible to a lot of bad rivers for instance] so just be a monster and bet bigger

On May 22 2012 23:38 PoorUser wrote: Show nested quote + On May 22 2012 01:16 DooMeR wrote: [QUOTE]On May 21 2012 14:40 n0rthf4ce wrote: also once we get cold-called it should be pretty obvious we are not bluffing the turn when we bet. we need to bet big to get value. setting up your entire range to be c/c c/c c/r sucks and is murderable for anyone good. second there is this stupid idea that every non 3b pot, your goal is to make the pot such that on the river you are shoving for around pot. sometimes 1/2 or 1/3 potting turn to set that up is bad [when you have a wide value range that is very susceptible to a lot of bad rivers for instance] so just be a monster and bet bigger

If you are talking about spots where 1/3-1/2 potting the turn, I'm assuming it's likely a scenario where the flop was 3bet and called. If that's the case, the call of the 3bet is a trap or a pure float/draw with very marginal equity looking for the turn to check through so that it can jam river. I guess you must be assuming that some opponents are peeling the flop 3bet w/ very marginal showdown value in order to induce you to bluff jam the turn.....?

Either way you look at it, I can't fathom jamming being better than betting real small on the turn since your flop 3bet bluffs are likely going to have like 20% equity at best whenever you are behind.

You also said that if you are 3betting the flop wide for value that betting small on the turn leaves you susceptible to bad rivers, but the point of betting the turn so small is that villain either does one of two things ---he jams his draws that have ~20% equity against our value range, or he ends up defining his range so narrowly by taking the line of c/r flop then call 3bet then c/c a tiny bet on the turn that we can play the river pretty much perfectly given we have position (unless villain does something super funky like open jam -- and I only mention that because I've had guys I view as extremely strong players take that line against me which is what makes this such a curious topic IMO). But even additionally, we get a super cheap price on our turn bluff the times we have air, and the inverse is true of the statement you made that our small turn bet allows villain to realize more equity behind at a cheaper price because the times he is trapping, he now has to worry that we are giving ourselves a great price to see the river which clearly ends up working in our favor since we have position.

I feel really confidently about this, but I know you and Eric are really brilliant players, so if you can tell me what you think is wrong with this line of thought I'd be very interested.

The only thing I can think of is if you are constantly playing against guys who are running zero equity bluffs on you--this type of stuff happens so incredibly rarely at mid stakes in my experience and our application from practice might differ because of that.

I guess no response means I'm probably either just right or that I'm out of my mind.