Submitted by : Nazgul

PokerStars Game #6944079309: Hold'em No Limit ($10/$20) - 2006/11/08 - 16:33:37 (ET)
Table 'Maja III' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Nazgul18 ($5740 in chips)
Seat 2: gcnmoo ($2169 in chips)
Seat 3: preposterous ($1930 in chips)
Seat 4: VaeSolis ($2000 in chips)
Seat 5: RiVoRaTT ($3936 in chips)
Seat 6: MisterMOTOWN ($2514 in chips)
gcnmoo: posts small blind $10
preposterous: posts big blind $20

Holecards
Dealt to Nazgul18
VaeSolis: folds
RiVoRaTT: raises $36 to $56
MisterMOTOWN: folds
Nazgul18: raises $184 to $240
gcnmoo: folds
preposterous: folds
RiVoRaTT: calls $184

Flop (Pot : $510)

   
RiVoRaTT: bets $296
Nazgul18: calls $296

Turn (Pot : $1102)

   
RiVoRaTT: bets $400
Nazgul18: raises $600 to $1000
RiVoRaTT: raises $600 to $1600
Nazgul18: raises $3604 to $5204 and is all-in
RiVoRaTT: folds
Nazgul18 collected $4299 from pot
Nazgul18: doesn't show hand

Summary
Total pot $4302 | Rake $3
Board  
Seat 1: Nazgul18 (button) collected ($4299)
Seat 2: gcnmoo (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: preposterous (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: VaeSolis folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: RiVoRaTT folded on the Turn
Seat 6: MisterMOTOWN folded before Flop (didn't bet)

I always wanted to ask this
How can a guy who still min-raise have a roll to play 2000nl?

you don't think he had some 5h6h sorta hand? no possibility of it?

I think minraises like this are different and can be good

Misplayed.. hmm... Flatcalling the raise to $1600 will get action on a blank from aces, kings or queens probably and theres always the 9h, your dreamcard

edit: you won about a buyin from this anyway

vvvq said that naz is a nit

56h is not a possibility for sure. If he reraises that on turn it will be a raise that commits him enough to call my allin (or put me allin himself). Actually I don't like miniraises but given my preflop reraise and then raising him on xxTT I do like it. He probably thought I could never have a ten. I will probably have KA here alot of the time in which case miniraise would be enough to make me fold usually.

if you call he knows you have him

if you push he knows you have him

pushing is better, he can't catch a heart if that's what he has or if he has a miracle card he can't hit that either

plus he may try to make a hero call with a worse hand thinking there's no way you have a ten and would not value bet AA that way

plus, hell, it's possible he folded a hand like 8T, 9T, JT, fearing you had a higher kicker or a boat, and figuring there was no way you were doing this with AK or AA/KK.

considering my preflop reraise, no those folds are never ever possible.

if you call he knows you have him

that would be the point as you flat call to induce a bluff on the river because he knows he has no other way to win this pot

well i'm saying that he'd give up on the river because he'd know that you wouldn't call the turn and then fold the river, so he'd know that you flatcalled with a monster planning to induce a river bluff (unless river is a heart, then maybe he can still muster a bluff)

i think there's no way to disguise your handstrength here so just push and give yourself maximum equity... plus you avoid the difficult question of what happens if the river is the 7h and he pushes. and i think it's very possible he could fold 8T or 9T on the turn for 2 buyins.

but that's just my incorrect opinion obviously.

min raise is a play that def make sense sometimes.....its mainly when the board has no draws, and u think ur opponement is either bluffing or HAS it. its useless to raise big in these cases.

My thoughts on this hand (without a read of course) is that he has KK-QQ (given preflop action this seems logical). He bets relativley small on the flop for pot control purposes. Once the ten pairs he assumes his hand is probably good + he does not give you credit for the ten because of your preflop play, also the ten is an excellent bluff card so it's conceivable you are trying to represent it and get him off a hand w/ a smaller pair or some type of draw. After he mini 3 bets you on the turn I would immagine if you are indeed bluffing you shut down and surrender the pot but because you come over the top the likleyhood that KK-QQ is still good are slim to none.
I would immagine if you smooth call the turn 3 bet he leads out on the river because he has shown the willingless to bet. I would immagine the bet size would be in the range of $750-1000 preety much pot commiting himself to a shove. The only river he may not bet would be A or heart. So I would imamgine ~70% of the time you can stack him by doing this.

i disagree with PITF, no way he is doing this with 2 hearts, he wouldnt re-open the betting for a mini-raise, he would flat call or if he wants to get cute he would shove, he would NEVER mini-raise with a draw here, because reopening the betting with the minimum ammount required with a draw is just stupid.

You are missing the huge fact tha Nazgul is in position, if you flat oop, and u check river trying to induce a bluff is dangerous cuzh e might check behind with a hand with showdown value (overpair) or just let go the bluff if he has one.

however Naz is in position, if he flats here he gives the chance for the other guy to make a huge bluff, if he has a hand with showdown value he can valuebet river.

I personally would make a fake timing call and hope he pushes river

I think he just tried to "rebluff" you - since you might be on a steal attempt. And a cheap way to do so - is miniraising - and it's pretty tough to call a miniraise on that board if you dont have the ten.

so probably a miss-timed bluff.

call him and shove the river!

i think he has AhKx or AhQx and is trying to 2street you off of something that can't call a 2street.

i don't buy that he has KK/QQ or anything else. i think it's more reasonable to believe that he's drawn totally dead here.

what id his handrange of making this miniraise?
i like TT-s QQ/KK but are there any hands that play the same?

my thoughts on why he'd minraise:

he has the keycard (Ah) and he correctly feels that there's no chance that you have a clubdraw, so he minraises back so that he has enough left to safely shove any riv

it's not logical to put him on KK/QQ but not include AA. AA with Ah may also take this line; he could even have AhAc. i think that JJ is impossible because there is no rational basis for playing JJ like this.

i think he can't have KK/QQ because there's no reason for him to minraise back when he's WAWB with no insurance and all he's doing is bending over. he needs to have a reason to keep X amount behind other than to check whatever river (which doesn't help him 96%) and then possibly have pressure applied to him; that reason is usually to reserve it to fire it on riv, and he has to have a reason for it.

closing thoughts:

if he has nut heartdraw i think he c/rs in.

if he has KK/QQ i think he makes some attempt to show his hand down (chkc/chkr)

i think he has AhAx or AhKx/AhQx where x is not a heart.

casper, i like your AhXx rationale but i disagree about this being AhAx ever. if you mean he'd take this line as a 2 street bluff with AhAx exactly as you rightly say he might with AhXx, id say that's completely impossible because the only hands he folds out are all hands he can beat on showdown. if you mean he'd take this as a crazy value line AhAx, i still doubt it because i think he'd play it the same as you said he'd play KK which is to go for the showdown.

yeah as has been said already, given villain's turn play this is NEVER hearts or some crazy straight draw (unless he misclicked!). villain either has a full house, is drawing dead or has 2 outs to a house, so this is a classic way ahead/way behind spot. So this makes calling his turn 3bet the correct play - to spell it out for completeness if its not obvious why, it's because if hero shoves then villain can play perfectly and fold when way behind/call when way ahead. whereas calling turn gives villain the chance to make a huge mistake and bluff shove river (without the risk of being outdrawn since we're WAY ahead when we're ahead!).

i feel he either has ~88 or just nothing at all. i dont know this player but the only way id push is if he would try to make this call with 88. otherwise i would flat the turn
but its very easy to get caught up in hands like these vs minraises and want to get it in

If he never has hearts then u gotta agree with Ket's WAWB statement. Aside from his fold i think this coulda been AA.

yeah overpair or boat is his only 2 holdings

i lean more towards overpair because it's somewhat illogical to play boat like this

Naz

i think ur a great player dude from having seen u play up close and personal =)

and i think ur 100% right when u said, 'he mins with 10x or nothing' draw = push by him....ur bang on and i'd say u misplayed it as well (not horribly obv just with regards to extracting the most amount possible long term) one of those hands that are easier to judge after u've played them and not in the heat of the moment hehe...anyways NH regardless and u DA man

sorry i meant 10x, nothing or outside chance boat, but i'd seriously doubt boat (meaning if ur called he's ahead where as like u said let him potentially push a bluff)

and i'd say no chance overpair unless that gay 56 pre means OP (u'd obv have to have him noted to know that)