Would appreciate comments on that hand, i butchered it hardcore, i was lost, need help^^

isn't it an obvious bet?

to my eyes it is
the interesting part is the Kh river
:O

Check for pot control imo

was thinking x/c x/c non heart/ten rivers but i guess that is way off O_O


im discounting some overpairs because he raised flop with another person to act behind him
so wouldn't that take away some of our benefit from leading turn?

then again, he might just check all of his sets and fds and that is v bad for us

Mega 100% clear turn lead. On the Kh river you are simply forced to check then get psychic, but I'd lean strongly towards a fold since he nearly always has sdv and should be happy with showing it pretty often.

can someone explain why turn lead is 100%

why would he suspect that we have a straight or set (and so he will never be worse)? would he not vbet his sets and semi bluff his flushes on this or is that just silly.

if he has a set, our hand looks like a flush draw/other draw/marginal hand so it makes sense for him to bet

if he has a flush draw, our hand looks like a marginal made hand or also a fd/draw - > this range can't stand up to 3 barrels so he'd bet again

but he will probably check JJ-AA 100% of the time which is bad.. does he raise these on flop with another person to act tho?

idk, havent really tried to think poker for a year+ so explain like im 5 plz

I would bet like 45
check call paired river
bet out on heart river

(again id bet out like half pot, it'd be a hell of a bluff for him to bluff raise heart river)

I think it's an easy turn bet because you lose value by checking. If you check he'll likely check behind because of the board's texture (tough for him to cbet with anything but a straight).

I think it's very easy for villian to give you credit for a hand here because of your bet/call out of position on the flop and the fact you're in the bb and you have a wide pf calling range. The 8 on the turn also completes a lot of the draws you might have been on, which is why I don't see him cbetting the turn.. even with an overpair/set

We also don't want to give villian a free river.. he could hit a flush or a better straight, so I think betting is the optimal play here, question is how much? I think a big bet is good here to take down a decent pot without getting sucked out on/guessing what you'll do on the river when a sick card comes (ie. any heart/card that pairs the board)

If you decide to bet small and he flats it will allow us to narrow his range to pretty much JJ+/AJs+/66-99, maybe KQs. By betting you also give villian the opportunity to come over the top with his sets/overpairs/bluffs

ehhh... why would we donk lead this turn? we have a nice hand and villain is 100 % more prone to bet this turn than peel river. if we bet our hand is pretty much face up....... which will make it very easy for villain to bluff almost any river as we are unlikely to give him any bluff credit in this spot.

also asdf betting heart rivers is suicidal and will only burn money.

but if you're gonna bet turn you should bet 27 or something.

PLZ HELP why is turn a clear lead? what is his range? my head is so full of fucks

On July 05 2012 15:20 Oly wrote: Mega 100% clear turn lead. On the Kh river you are simply forced to check then get psychic, but I'd lean strongly towards a fold since he nearly always has sdv and should be happy with showing it pretty often.

100% agree with this

On July 05 2012 22:32 idonklife wrote: also asdf betting heart rivers is suicidal and will only burn money.

and why is that

do people ever donk lead here without the ten?

On July 06 2012 00:03 Fayth wrote: do people ever donk lead here without the ten?

yeah i don't think so

maybe we should just continue to play the hand passively and c/c c/c, hoping he turns something random into a bluff?

our hand is definitely face up when we donk bet into villain, but why risk losing a decent pot by giving him the opportunity to river a better hand. I don't think there's a whole lot more value we're gonna get from villain after the turn.. I might be wrong. I just don't like giving villain a free river, that's all

On July 05 2012 22:32 idonklife wrote: if we bet our hand is pretty much face up....... which will make it very easy for villain to bluff almost any river as we are unlikely to give him any bluff credit in this spot.

this is a mindfuck to me.

On July 06 2012 01:01 Stroggoz wrote: Show nested quote + On July 05 2012 22:32 idonklife wrote: if we bet our hand is pretty much face up....... which will make it very easy for villain to bluff almost any river as we are unlikely to give him any bluff credit in this spot. this is a mindfuck to me.

VIllian has not earned himself enough bluff credit to bluff the river yet

On July 06 2012 00:03 Fayth wrote: do people ever donk lead here without the ten?

Ironically no, but people still call with worse anyway.

elders, speak! heh

imo people might've called with worse five years ago but nowadays it's not happening. and us leading out makes it so easy for villain to either fold (can't be arsed trying to get us to fold a ten) or call and fuck us up on a lot of rivers. we never have the nuts here (because then we check?). yeah. i simply don't understand leading. it feels so stupid.

On July 05 2012 23:45 asdf2000 wrote: Show nested quote + On July 05 2012 22:32 idonklife wrote: also asdf betting heart rivers is suicidal and will only burn money. and why is that

because if we lead on the turn it's 100 % obvious we have a ten. if we then lead heart rivers villain will (if called turn) shove over us 100 % of the time. which is fucking disgusting.

On July 06 2012 05:22 idonklife wrote: Show nested quote + On July 05 2012 23:45 asdf2000 wrote:   On July 05 2012 22:32 idonklife wrote: also asdf betting heart rivers is suicidal and will only burn money. and why is that because if we lead on the turn it's 100 % obvious we have a ten. if we then lead heart rivers villain will (if called turn) shove over us 100 % of the time. which is fucking disgusting.

Really? You know villain can't see our hand. Sometimes we do have a flush as well.

On July 06 2012 06:19 SpasticInk wrote: Show nested quote + On July 06 2012 05:22 idonklife wrote:   On July 05 2012 23:45 asdf2000 wrote:   On July 05 2012 22:32 idonklife wrote: also asdf betting heart rivers is suicidal and will only burn money. and why is that because if we lead on the turn it's 100 % obvious we have a ten. if we then lead heart rivers villain will (if called turn) shove over us 100 % of the time. which is fucking disgusting. Really? You know villain can't see our hand. Sometimes we do have a flush as well.

for reals? villain can't see our hand?? that's some serious insight right there. but why don't we use that fact and not tell villain what our hand is? would you lead turn with a flushdraw? that means more often than not you're gonna have to call a turn raise/shove. imo we will not have a flush on heart river nearly enough times for a shove from villain to be losing over the long run.

On July 06 2012 09:25 idonklife wrote: Show nested quote + On July 06 2012 06:19 SpasticInk wrote:   On July 06 2012 05:22 idonklife wrote:   On July 05 2012 23:45 asdf2000 wrote:   On July 05 2012 22:32 idonklife wrote: also asdf betting heart rivers is suicidal and will only burn money. and why is that because if we lead on the turn it's 100 % obvious we have a ten. if we then lead heart rivers villain will (if called turn) shove over us 100 % of the time. which is fucking disgusting. Really? You know villain can't see our hand. Sometimes we do have a flush as well. for reals? villain can't see our hand?? that's some serious insight right there. but why don't we use that fact and not tell villain what our hand is? would you lead turn with a flushdraw? that means more often than not you're gonna have to call a turn raise/shove. imo we will not have a flush on heart river nearly enough times for a shove from villain to be losing over the long run.

lead turn and bluff river with a flush draw would be a great line imo..