i hate this T_T i don't think you ever get him to fold a split and he can have you beat too

Agree, you raise him on the flopp and he still calls and calls the turn, he obv going to showdown imo

i just don't think he will show a profit taking this line when his hand is faceup. i have seen him 3bet QQ in the past vs my utg open before and i'm sure he would have reraised me with QQ preflop this session. i think he will get crushed longterm taking this line vs my range, and i don't think we can just fold AK to every donk lead with 77.

i think raising or calling flop are fine, but i still dislike turn bet a little and i think river is burning money.

he may get crushed longterm doing this vs your range, but when is the last time you think someone folded 66+ in villain's shoes there? maybe on turn/flop, but on that ultra-brick river i don't think it's happening. it's basically like saying you're willing to pay 65bb's to balance your range on the river in this spot vs this player. imo he would get crushed more if you don't bluff in a never-folding spot

Just because u know villains hand does not mean he will fold. Lots of time when ppl lead they feel as though they will induce bluff raises and aggression and call down

i dont think its a bad play- given we are utg repping strong range, villain cant have qq+ we have clean image and villain is thinking player

but calling is ok too, no?

i mean calling flop and raising turn might look even more scary/ credible

On July 14 2012 10:31 eestwood wrote: i mean calling flop and raising turn might look even more scary/ credible

Yea I was thinking about that too, but against a 19/16 dude i would play JJ+ the same, since he isn't representing anything on this board, unless he like flat AA or something preflop.

Actually thinking about this a little more. flatting flop and raising/betting turn and river is better, since we kind of make it look that we want to keep midpairs in the hand. It will also save us some money on the bluff.

On July 14 2012 11:03 the cleaner wrote: Show nested quote + On July 14 2012 10:31 eestwood wrote: i mean calling flop and raising turn might look even more scary/ credible Yea I was thinking about that too, but against a 19/16 dude i would play JJ+ the same, since he isn't representing anything on this board, unless he like flat AA or something preflop. Actually thinking about this a little more. flatting flop and raising/betting turn and river is better, since we kind of make it look that we want to keep midpairs in the hand. It will also save us some money on the bluff.

what a lot of people fail to realize on boards like this is that JJ+ is a meaningless value range which represents about 1.5% of hands, thats like saying how can he shove 99 preflop, my stackoff range is TT+, if your pulling shit like some % of the time this his play is a slam dunk +EV snap call

ok, so i assigned myself following range, which represents about 4.4% of hands, or about 25% of the hands I would open from EP.

FLOP

Board: 4h 4s 2d
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 66.056% 66.06% 00.00% 192264 0.00 { JJ+, 44, 22, AKs, AdQd, AhJh, A4s, JhTh, AKo }
Hand 1: 33.944% 33.94% 00.00% 98796 0.00 { 77 }

TURN

Board: 4h 4s 2d 5d
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 67.440% 67.44% 00.00% 8724 0.00 { JJ+, 44, 22, AKs, AdQd, AhJh, A4s, JhTh, AKo }
Hand 1: 32.560% 32.56% 00.00% 4212 0.00 { 77 }

RIVER

Board: 4h 4s 2d 5d 5h
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 53.759% 53.46% 00.30% 324071013 1792869.00 { JJ+, 44, 22, AKs, AdQd, AhJh, A4s, JhTh, AKo }
Hand 1: 46.241% 45.95% 00.30% 278498865 1792869.00 { 77 }

a lot of those hands i would flat instead of minraising his flop lead, so i guess is it's much better to call the flop and put pressure on him on later streets ? i can represent a much wider range like that.

which would be the best line to take with my hand in the following scenario

he leads flop, i call and he checks turn (bet turn and river?)
he leads flop, and bets turn ?

what a lot of people fail to realize on boards like this is that JJ+ is a meaningless value range which represents about 1.5% of hands, thats like saying how can he shove 99 preflop, my stackoff range is TT+, if your pulling shit like some % of the time this his play is a slam dunk +EV snap call

I think I know what u mean - if hero would do this w KQ, AQ,AK than hes bluffin too much and you can snap call every time. But if he knows what hes doin and only do this w 16 combos AK (and not much wider - maybe some nut BDFD which turned FD on the turn) - than villain cant profitably call you w 77

On July 14 2012 14:26 the cleaner wrote: ok, so i assigned myself following range, which represents about 4.4% of hands, or about 25% of the hands I would open from EP. FLOP Board: 4h 4s 2d equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 66.056% 66.06% 00.00% 192264 0.00 { JJ+, 44, 22, AKs, AdQd, AhJh, A4s, JhTh, AKo } Hand 1: 33.944% 33.94% 00.00% 98796 0.00 { 77 } TURN Board: 4h 4s 2d 5d equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 67.440% 67.44% 00.00% 8724 0.00 { JJ+, 44, 22, AKs, AdQd, AhJh, A4s, JhTh, AKo } Hand 1: 32.560% 32.56% 00.00% 4212 0.00 { 77 } RIVER Board: 4h 4s 2d 5d 5h equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 53.759% 53.46% 00.30% 324071013 1792869.00 { JJ+, 44, 22, AKs, AdQd, AhJh, A4s, JhTh, AKo } Hand 1: 46.241% 45.95% 00.30% 278498865 1792869.00 { 77 }

great, now assign a turn/river range of only value hands and you're gona make a lot of money.