answering questions on this hand

Submitted by : thorladen

PokerStars Game #6941684662: Hold'em No Limit ($25/$50) - 2006/11/08 - 12:26:13 (ET)
Table 'Jugta' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 2: stinkypete13 ($900 in chips)
Seat 3: AJsxxx ($3397 in chips)
Seat 4: robert07 ($5000 in chips)
Seat 5: 53495 ($2532 in chips)
Seat 6: hazards21 ($6857 in chips)
Seat 7: MisterMOTOWN ($8186 in chips)
Seat 8: PAUTA ($950 in chips)
Seat 9: thorladen ($12413 in chips)
PAUTA: posts small blind $25
thorladen: posts big blind $50
H@££INGGOL: sits out

Holecards
Dealt to thorladen
stinkypete13: folds
AJsxxx: raises $100 to $150
robert07: folds
53495: folds
hazards21: folds
MisterMOTOWN: folds
PAUTA: calls $125
thorladen: calls $100

Flop (Pot : $450)

   
PAUTA: checks
thorladen: checks
AJsxxx: checks

Turn (Pot : $450)

   
PAUTA: checks
thorladen: bets $250
AJsxxx: calls $250
PAUTA: folds

River (Pot : $950)

   
thorladen: checks
AJsxxx: bets $1000
thorladen: folds
AJsxxx collected $947 from pot
AJsxxx: shows (a straight flush, Eight to Queen)

Summary
Total pot $950 | Rake $3
Board  
Seat 2: stinkypete13 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: AJsxxx collected ($947)
Seat 4: robert07 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: 53495 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: hazards21 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: MisterMOTOWN (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: PAUTA (small blind) folded on the Turn
Seat 9: thorladen (big blind) folded on the River

obv i cant i suck someone pm me please and tell me how

omg i can do it now weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee

This answers the questions posed when I posted the hand
sorry I didnt transfer questions but you can work them out I think


Answers lie in the stack sizes:

Not deep enough that i need to lead to stack him I wanted raiser to bet to trap shorty in the middle and on that flop the raiser will bet 80+% of time

That laydown wasnt hard at all at any stakes

So in summary I would say my check was the aggressive play and leading would have been passive at these stacks and my position to raiser.

I put this hand down cuz I wanted it for my students I think the play is somewhat auto in this particular situation

question: why am i not one of your students yet

come on let's bind together with wonder twin power and then issue a challenge on P5's telling GP that he and bigballs are going down

it'll be great fun

question: what makes you say that leading the flop is passive?

i'm going to be leading this flop a lot, considering that the preflop raiser only raised 3bb, his range is definitely huge and can include lots of lower SC's, 9T, J9 (which are unlikely to c-bet), AJ, AT, and all underpairs

seems like a lot of hands in there are going to check through the flop and there are lots of really really bad cards for you considering the board. i'd almost always bet at this flop, what makes it passive? seems more defensive than anything, since it's too often that the preflop raiser didn't smack this board, as I would be more inclined to believe if he raised 4bb and would have AK/KQ/KJ/TT/whatever.

i dont think the pfr is going to c-bet on this flop with a hand like a pair and a gutshot very often against two coldcalls from the small blind and big blind, it's too likely somebody connected strongly with this board, so i'd lead.

and at these stakes is AK really going to pay you off to a checkraise? maybe you could induce a 3-bet ai by KQ or QJ, but it seems like this board is really too scary for lots of hands to pay you off except KJ sometimes, i guess, but even KJ is close to a fold when facing a checkraise on this board (i guess it's opponent dependent though, but you are still repping a LOT of strength c/ring from the big blind on this board). it's really dubious for him to put you on a flush draw checkraising on a broadway board, because you'd be generally inclined to believe that the PFR nailed this board and hence you'd have little fold equity (and it's not that hard for him to hold the nuts), so he will not be likely to believe that you're c/ring for fold equity because you'd be scared that the PFR hit this board unless you hit it with a nut-like hand (like JJ), so i don't know if KJ is going to pay you off here often. and JT especially not.

potting thrice may get more value from AK than a checkraise, which may induce him to pitch it ont he flop.

lol you have students? how the hell do you apply ;p

why didnt you pot it on turn?

On November 08 2006 10:09 Pokerintheface wrote: question: what makes you say that leading the flop is passive? i'm going to be leading this flop a lot, considering that the preflop raiser only raised 3bb, his range is definitely huge and can include lots of lower SC's, 9T, J9 (which are unlikely to c-bet), AJ, AT, and all underpairs seems like a lot of hands in there are going to check through the flop and there are lots of really really bad cards for you considering the board. i'd almost always bet at this flop, what makes it passive? seems more defensive than anything, since it's too often that the preflop raiser didn't smack this board, as I would be more inclined to believe if he raised 4bb and would have AK/KQ/KJ/TT/whatever. i dont think the pfr is going to c-bet on this flop with a hand like a pair and a gutshot very often against two coldcalls from the small blind and big blind, it's too likely somebody connected strongly with this board, so i'd lead.

You are reading way to much into amount raised and not enough into his position(at these stakes few people vary their raises based on hand)

I would lead this flop often on draw, bluff, and made hand into raiser if his stack is deep.check raise i dont want to go into when i do it and how often(too much info)

The reason I think this check in THIS situation is the aggressive play is that if preflop raiser bets and on that flop I have every reason to think he will I am then drawing in possibley the real short stack and creating a bigger pot for the first guy to try to win( I might very well flat call flop and hope for blank to stack him or I might raise,see interview for reasons)


Thor

edit: baal originally asked "why not cr the turn"
because the 4 didn't improve anyone's hand obviously, and the PFR has shown no strength, so there is no reason to believe that he will bet on the turn, and he wants to get money to compensate for the flop which was not bet.

checkraising the turn might work sometimes if he has a bare hand like J9 or complete air, but with an underpair or J9/T9/whatever, he'll be checking behind fairly often and you'll get to the river with a set in a 9bb pot.

No longer reason to believe I would get that opportunity but is definately a possible play

The problem I see besides not getting it as an option is that the guy didnt bet flop on flop I expected him to bet so he got nothing or alot of something usually and I would rather get that info by betting the turn(sort of like controling the doubling cube in backgammon)


sorry this quote should have been why i didnt check raise on turn

On November 08 2006 10:42 Baal wrote: why didnt you pot it on turn?

On November 08 2006 10:43 thorladen wrote: Show nested quote + On November 08 2006 10:09 Pokerintheface wrote: question: what makes you say that leading the flop is passive? i'm going to be leading this flop a lot, considering that the preflop raiser only raised 3bb, his range is definitely huge and can include lots of lower SC's, 9T, J9 (which are unlikely to c-bet), AJ, AT, and all underpairs seems like a lot of hands in there are going to check through the flop and there are lots of really really bad cards for you considering the board. i'd almost always bet at this flop, what makes it passive? seems more defensive than anything, since it's too often that the preflop raiser didn't smack this board, as I would be more inclined to believe if he raised 4bb and would have AK/KQ/KJ/TT/whatever. i dont think the pfr is going to c-bet on this flop with a hand like a pair and a gutshot very often against two coldcalls from the small blind and big blind, it's too likely somebody connected strongly with this board, so i'd lead. You are reading way to much into amount raised and not enough into his position(at these stakes few people vary their raises based on hand) I would lead this flop often on draw, bluff, and made hand into raiser if his stack is deep.check raise i dont want to go into when i do it and how often(too much info) The reason I think this check in THIS situation is the aggressive play is that if preflop raiser bets and on that flop I have every reason to think he will I am then drawing in possibley the real short stack and creating a bigger pot for the first guy to try to win( I might very well flat call flop and hope for blank to stack him or I might raise,see interview for reasons) Thor

well i mean i understand why you would checkraise with a big hand, that's kind of obvious, but will he really pay you off with a worse hand on this board? and it kind of seems like he DID vary his raise based on his hand; he raised 3bb with Q8s from MP...

and even with an open ended straight flush draw, he didn't bet the flop :x

also how often do you think a hand like T9, AJ, AT, complete air are betting the flop?

personally, and obviously you'd know better than me, but personally I think that a flop like K82 would be more likely for the PFR to c-bet than KJT even though a lot more hands are going to hit KJT than K82 that are in the PFR's range, it's easier for NOBODY to hit K82 and for the PFR to represent having hit on K82 than for nobody to hit KJT and for the PFR to bet and win the pot. if that makes sense.

so i don't think he's going to bet this flop 80% of the time. obviously i'm not stating this as fact, i'm looking to be refuted.

I dont think what u present is any evidence at all that he varied his raise based on his hand

I expect him to bet around 80% of the time on this flop

I agree with you on the krag flop is more likely i make that abt 90% to be bet

On November 08 2006 10:02 Pokerintheface wrote: question: why am i not one of your students yet come on let's bind together with wonder twin power and then issue a challenge on P5's telling GP that he and bigballs are going down it'll be great fun

I agree it would be fun but have to pass for now

eh, i dunno... do you think he'd bet the flop with an underpair? with T9? with AT?

what hands do you think he'd be likely to check back on the flop with?

betting onto an extremely coordinated board into 2 callers from the blinds after raising EP, in a 3-way pot, i don't c-bet anywhere near 80% of the time...

is it just the increasedly aggressive dynamic of the game or is it standard to c-bet very often in 3-way pots?

and what would you do with a strong but vulnerable hand on this board like JTs? would you lead it? still c/r? shut down if your c/r gets called? or do you have to make sure your line is consistent for your big hands and medium hands, so you have to do the same thing?

also, you seem to not have responded to this post, could you offer some thoughts real quick?

On November 08 2006 10:11 Pokerintheface wrote: and at these stakes is AK really going to pay you off to a checkraise? maybe you could induce a 3-bet ai by KQ or QJ, but it seems like this board is really too scary for lots of hands to pay you off except KJ sometimes, i guess, but even KJ is close to a fold when facing a checkraise on this board (i guess it's opponent dependent though, but you are still repping a LOT of strength c/ring from the big blind on this board). it's really dubious for him to put you on a flush draw checkraising on a broadway board, because you'd be generally inclined to believe that the PFR nailed this board and hence you'd have little fold equity (and it's not that hard for him to hold the nuts), so he will not be likely to believe that you're c/ring for fold equity because you'd be scared that the PFR hit this board unless you hit it with a nut-like hand (like JJ), so i don't know if KJ is going to pay you off here often. and JT especially not. potting thrice may get more value from AK than a checkraise, which may induce him to pitch it ont he flop.