"I need help rant", stake - Page 4

On October 31 2012 16:51 Ket wrote: I've taken a long time with replying to this, sorry about that. I didn't really want to think about the whole thing and put it behind me, but I figure since multiple ppl including longple himself have requested I bear in with a few words, I figure I owe it to the community to make some effort. I got into the deal with longple believing he is 100% trustworthy in that he definitely won't do anything with malicious intent to try and defraud me. Ofcourse I still believe that now, so just to get that out of the way first even though it was never in question. When I started the deal, I held the belief that longple has a good enough A-game to do well in the average 2/4-5/10 nlhe game and higher with good game selection, but was very liable to play much worse than his A-game if left to his own devices. What I wanted to try, was to see if I could harness his best and cut out a lot of his worst through regular micro-management and control over what he plays and when. One significant mistake I made was to not properly estimate the commitment that this would take, and of my life circumstances which made such commitments more difficult (basically gf, travel, too much of everything but poker). And so longple was left unmonitored for far longer than he ideally should have been in my opinion. He gave me communication and updates every few days on how he's doing, how he's feeling and what he's up to, all very well. Mostly during this time he was grinding steadily and consistently at the midstakes, with intermittent blowups at higher stakes (I have no doubt there was a decent amount of runbad as well ofcourse). After some months of showing a lot of discipline rebuilding for his mistakes by grinding out midstakes, he put some pressure on me to let him play 5/10 again. To be fair this is the opportunity he wanted from the deal to begin with, and he had shown a lot of patience. Given that he had only lost higher and crushed lower I wasn't thrilled about it but let him have what he wants. We noted that his results had been extremely good when patiently grinding it out in 4-6 handed games at midstakes, but his variance had been extreme and results very negative when battling hu/3handed vs good regs. Therefore we made an agreement that he would not play any hu/shorthanded at all when he starts at 5/10. I sent extra money so he would have a decent amount on 2 sites to play 5/10 with, and we began. Initially his play and mindset was good, and he was off to a great start results-wise. Here's where I slip up again, instead of micromanaging daily like I should out of caution for what might happen, I left him to his own devices. A couple of weeks later I learned that he had "fucked up", played hu and 3 handed like we agreed he shouldn't, and lost most of the money I had given him. Obviously this isn't the way to make my day, but I took it very well and didn't outwardly show any anger or bitterness. I said we should pause the stake for a while until I decide what I want to do. So in answer to AndrewSong's first question, I haven't actually formally declared my quitting of the stake yet, and so I believe that by right I can continue to back longple if I choose to do so. (do you agree longple?) As Andrewsong has pointed out, I think it's reasonable that I have the option to sell off longple's makeup to his next backer for a discouted rate. Since a lot of the losses were through a fault of longple and breaking of an agreement, I don't think this is at all unfair for longple to still shoulder this makeup from his next backer? If this is something another potential backer might be interested in, feel free to shoot me a message. I hope this account of what's up so far answers some of your questions, and if there are things I've missed or got wrong longple can feel free to add them. Also I'll answer any further questions.

Sorry to hear about the mess. I've had similar situation happen many times and it's definitely a headache to come up with satisfying solution for both partys. That's why it's crucial to have a good contract in place and have things planned for when shit hits the fan. This way both party would know exactly what to expect and wouldn't have to rely on mutual agreement when things go wrong. If longple went on a heater, I'm guessing you wouldn't have given the situation much thought when he screwed you entirely. That's not fair for you because not only did he break your foremost agreement, you're getting free rolled for the times he puts the bankroll on fire.

To be fair to longple, horse is no longer a horse if you can't get him running. If you can no longer stake him, he should be free to look for a backer elsewhere. It's your responsibility to find him a backer for his sake and also yours if you wanted to minimize the loss. He should've never been in a position to publicly ask for a stake when he's suppose to be under your wings.

Personally, I think every cent lost during HU-3handed should be separated from makeup and treated as a debt. Rest of the makeup should be dropped since you couldn't keep up your end of "mutual agreement" which was to keep him running at all times. I think longple is honorable enough to agree something similar to this extent.

Good luck to you both.

Edit: Every cent lost on HU-3handed after Ket put a ban

Pretty much agree with what Andrew said. If there was discussion about not playing 3handed and HU once playing higher then its like stealing money when you do it. Obviously there could be miscommunication so I'm not saying that's what happened, but in a situation like that I could see Andrews solution of longple owing ket 33k and allowed to be staked by another party as a good solution.

I once had a horse who owed me money while I was backing him, and a solution we agreed on is that he would pay me half of his portion of the settle ups until I was paid back in full, then he would receive the full amount of his settle ups in the future. Something to think about. Crummy situation overall, hope you come up with something amicable.

On October 31 2012 19:41 Mortensen8 wrote: Sometimes he was trannying it up a bit and spent a lot on make up, just what happens sometimes.

Something similar to that popped into my mind first lol, but after like 3 sec, I figured it probably wasn't that.

On October 31 2012 19:49 chris wrote: ket staked him and longple owes him 33k of profits to 'make up' the hole he is in. because Ket staked him and they never formally ended the stake, longple is essentially owned by ket, in terms of poker. to get his freedom, he would have to make up 33k to ket. then whatever future backer he has would begin to see returns. however, things like this happen and my guess (speculation) would be that if something does get formalized , it is likely that ket and the other stakers would split initial profits until ket was paid, but he might accept a discount on the make up. (example, longple gets 33% of profits, ket 33% and group 33%) and ket gets full 33k back, then its 50/50 longple and group.. or ket gets 50% while group gets 25% and longple 25% but ket discounts the makeup from 33k to 28k or something. its sort of like a declaration on future earnings for longple

Ok thanks, now I feel a little silly for not getting it lol

Huff, I was once in a similar shitty place. 3-4 Years ago, I got staked 5-10 here and there by a good friend of mine. I usually won a little, a few times mediocre winnings xD.

(Think I won the first 3-4 stakes).

Then the last time I lost 5-6k, and I got scared and didn't play for 1,2 years or so. I then got back into poker, and same friend said he'd stake me. I said I was bad, needed to regrind, learn. So got staked on two euro sites. And I played micro for 5 weeks, put in 90k hands.

Then when I was ending stake I got told I had to make up for the thingy I was down, at 5-10 a few years earlier. I was crushed, confused, and tbh a little angry. Felt wrong. LoL. (So I ended up paying him 580e or so, + give back the stake, and had nothing left. Felt really wrong paying back a crazy high stake on a micro lol, but we figured it out and still great friends xD)

But then again I've never been good with money, math, numbers and these kinds of things.

You guys all seem a lot smarter than me though, probably much better solutions xD GL GL

On November 01 2012 03:07 thewh00sel wrote: Pretty much agree with what Andrew said. If there was discussion about not playing 3handed and HU once playing higher then its like stealing money when you do it. Obviously there could be miscommunication so I'm not saying that's what happened, but in a situation like that I could see Andrews solution of longple owing ket 33k and allowed to be staked by another party as a good solution. I once had a horse who owed me money while I was backing him, and a solution we agreed on is that he would pay me half of his portion of the settle ups until I was paid back in full, then he would receive the full amount of his settle ups in the future. Something to think about. Crummy situation overall, hope you come up with something amicable.

For the sake of longple's reputation I'd like to stress that I don't feel wronged and nothing anywhere near "stealing" was done. I believe some minor slip-ups and transgressions were made but a lot of the fault lies in poor and non-explicit communication, both in terms of the exact agreements we made and of his reporting after of what had happened and to what extent it was the fault of slipups. I can only truly judge the extent of the slipups if i see all the hand histories, but basically now my view of what happened comes from how I interpret what longple told me over skype. From what he is telling me now, it seems there is a decent possibility he did not screw up near as bad as the wording I used in my previous post makes it sound, at least in terms of the 'no hu/3handed with regs' agreement we made.

Another thing I want to mention is that while we're trying to get this mess negoitiated, longple is showing a great effort to want to make things right even as it puts him under great stress. I'm actually a little touched by his sense of honour and strength of character, wanting to make things right even when he's in a bad spot himself and must be feeling really bad about everything. I hope we can find a resolution that's fair to all parties but above all understanding of longple's situation. We'll come back to it in a few months and see how things stand, in the meantime I wish longple the best of luck getting things back on track