UFC 154: St-Pierre vs. Condit - Page 8

lol

taco > keanureaver

it's not even close.

I'm perfectly fine with being civil in a discussion like this but you're not really giving me much leverage to do so here.

receiving punches is only indirectly related to being fatigued, and most of that relationship can be eliminated with good technical skills. compare an mma fighter to a boxer who will receive literally hundreds of blows over the course of a fight yet have more than enough endurance to last 2-3x longer than how long an mma fight lasts.

honestly man, like i said i'm fine with being civil, but i don't really think you know what you're talking about at all, or you have some really fanciful notion on what it means to be an mma fighter, and your last sentence proves it. while the surface area of a boxing glove is larger than an mma glove mike tyson in his prime would only reach a fraction of 2500 PSI in a punch. Assuming 2 1/2 square inches of surface area on an mma glove (obviously a lot of variance, compare lesnars fist with say cruz), i'd expect it would be extremely rare to ever receive a ground strike above 200 PSI and even that is really pushing it

you're just hyperbole man, thats all. take a step back and try to be realistic, mma fighters aren't super heroes that regularly throw 2500 PSI punches and can easily negate and shrug off techniques from world class grapplers

On November 20 2012 10:00 kaboom wrote: lol taco > keanureaver it's not even close.

yeah, he said mma fighters can regularly punch with 1000-2500PSI from the ground
im clearly outmatched here

On November 20 2012 10:10 KeanuReaver wrote: yeah, he said mma fighters can regularly punch with 1000-2500PSI from the ground

Please point to where I said. that. In a discussion can not say you're all for a civil discussion and then go on to a straw man argument slash lie.

We're discussing the endurance required for MMA vs the endurance required for BJJ and then I'm suddenly saying
that fighters can both punch and kick (remember that I said arm or leg) with a certain PSI from the guard exclusively as opposed to in MMA and not in BJJ?

Oh and this caught my eye whilst I was on page 7:

On November 20 2012 09:31 KeanuReaver wrote: guard isn't inferior

Are you kidding me at this point? I mean is this a joke? The obviously inferior physics of the position for striking mean nothing?
People like Randy Couture, Jon Jones, the most renowned coaches in MMA and so on and so forth are all wrong and you're the one that's right?

Guard in MMA is absolutely an inferior position to being inside someone's guard in essentially every single fair matchup.

On November 20 2012 09:31 KeanuReaver wrote: so, get a sweep; sweep the dude and fight to get mount, then fuck him up...congrats on winning the round if not the fight. Or, sub the guy

Oh my god man, you've stumbled onto something here.
Why haven't people been trying that strategy before? It's almost as if it is a ridiculously hard and low percentage and -EV thing to do.



Yeah, I've turned to mocking now that I read some of your previous post.

i mean, this is gonna sound douchebaggy but im not really sure how else to say it. there's a lot of hype that surrounds fighters and to people without any experience they seem larger than life

people used to say mike tyson punches as hard as a 16lb sledgehammer traveling at 40mph, just think about that for a second. a 16lb sledgehammer traveling at 40mph hitting someone in the head and people would be picking up left over bits of brain matter strewn across the ring. 2500PSI could crack a fucking concrete patio...do you really think chael sonnen can crack a concrete patio with a single punch?

one of the most important things to learn if you intend to do any amateur or professional fighting is that being hit really ISN'T that big of a deal. yes, you don't want to take too much punishment, but the worst thing you can do is tense up and be afraid to get hit...thats when you gas out and a professional of anderson silva's calibur shouldn't ever tense up that way.

The guy next in line to do serious damage is Chris Weidman imo. Can't wait for his next fight he's a special talent

On November 20 2012 10:28 taco wrote: Show nested quote + On November 20 2012 10:10 KeanuReaver wrote: yeah, he said mma fighters can regularly punch with 1000-2500PSI from the ground Please point to where I said. that. In a discussion can not say you're all for a civil discussion and then go on to a straw man argument slash lie. We're discussing the endurance required for MMA vs the endurance required for BJJ and then I'm suddenly saying that fighters can both punch and kick (remember that I said arm or leg) with a certain PSI from the guard exclusively as opposed to in MMA and not in BJJ? Oh and this caught my eye whilst I was on page 7:   On November 20 2012 09:31 KeanuReaver wrote: guard isn't inferior Are you kidding me at this point? I mean is this a joke? The obviously inferior physics of the position for striking mean nothing? People like Randy Couture, Jon Jones, the most renowned coaches in MMA and so on and so forth are all wrong and you're the one that's right? Guard in MMA is absolutely an inferior position to being inside someone's guard in essentially every single fair matchup.   On November 20 2012 09:31 KeanuReaver wrote: so, get a sweep; sweep the dude and fight to get mount, then fuck him up...congrats on winning the round if not the fight. Or, sub the guy Oh my god man, you've stumbled onto something here. Why haven't people been trying that strategy before? It's almost as if it is a ridiculously hard and low percentage and -EV thing to do. Yeah, I've turned to mocking now that I read some of your previous post.

"There is a monstrous difference between delivering 1000-2500 PSI (Please note that every action has an equal and opposing reaction, in this case in your arm or leg)
and throwing your arm forward fast to get a grip in BJJ and I truly want you to admit that fact if you want me to have a discussion with you."

maybe i misread, what does this statement mean?

and people do that amazing strategy i just discovered, multiple times in every ufc event. it's called being better than your competition. every time you watch a ufc event all decked out in your cute little tapout gear with all your bud light drinking buddies and you see someone get swept, or someone subbed, or someone get his back taken, or someone inch up the cage from their back, i want you to call it the KeanuReaver strategy and tell all your friends about this amazing strategist from arizona that discovered that you can actually do something more than just wrap your arms and legs around your opponent and pray the ref stands you up when you get planted on your back.

funny you mention randy couture, considering i've trained over at XCMMA for a couple years now. neil melanson, the dude who trains randy couture and is imo far and away the best grappler in the world that nobody has ever heard of, bases his style of submission grappling around guard systems, triangle chokes, and leg locks. the prevailing mentality at XCMMA when it comes to grappling is that if you can't sweep/sub/take the back then you will lose the round, in other words, guard isn't inferior unless you're inferior to your competition. the point i've been trying to get across this entire time.

and what the hell does "throw your arm forward fast to get a grip" even mean
the strongest grips and guard systems from guard involve your legs: corner locks, rubber guard, K control, shoulder pin, bicep ride etc. etc. etc. all involve your legs and all are almost impossible for the other guy to strike you from.

Is your idea of attacking and getting good grips from your back "throwing your arm forward fast"? really? maybe it's you that's concentrating too much on bjj and, more specifically, the gi?

sigh I feel like im talking to a brick wall that just wants to try to be cute and trolly.

ok, lets back up

we both agree that a well conditioned athlete can handle 25 minutes of hard rolling while being active and aggressive off of their back.

simple logic dictates that, when you get taken down, it's -EV to simply stall your opponent out, as they get all of that time being aggressive and controlling the fight.

i guess your argument is that trying to be active and aggressive from the guard is even more -EV than stalling out no matter the skill difference assuming you're +EV standing. I agree with this statement given the caveat that you're not a much better grappler than your opponent.

so essentially, our rift is that you feel trying to be aggressive from your back when you outclass your opponent is even more -EV than stalling out because you can simply wait to stand back up where you're +EV. Forgive me if the analogy isn't exact, but it would equate to intentionally doing something -EV (or maybe, avoiding a slightly +EV situation) vs a fish in favor of waiting for a more +EV situation later on in poker, add in a 25 minute time limit to how long you get to play the fish i suppose.

my side is that if you're significantly better than your opponent on the ground then you should be looking to take advantage of the near limitless attacks and combinations at your disposal because surrendering a partial round or a full round is much more high risk and -EV than full on grappling with someone that you outclass.

the main argument is over how the addition of strikes relates to a grapplers endurance and the subtraction of the gi (im assuming what you're getting at when you discuss sweating?) relates to the effectiveness of ground attacks. while i agree both should be taken into account, i clearly don't agree to anywhere near the same extent that you do. I've defended my position by highlighting each facet individually and comparing them across sports. IE, striking doesn't magically sap your energy like a UFC unleashed game; a 12 round boxing match lasts far longer than an mma fight and boxers will throw and take hundreds of punches over that time period yet they *often* do not gas out. IE#2, nogi grappling is a thing, world class grapplers compete against other world class grapplers and have to deal with sweat and the lack of grips that come with it yet everything still works, it wasn't that long ago that Roger Gracie submitted his way through his entire division and absolute division in ADCC. On top of that, I've also suggested that there are many mma fighters that are plenty successful fighting off of their back and they neither gas out and are world renowned for their ability to be effective from their back.

You've defended your side with...i dunno. hyperbole i guess, some ridiculous numbers, and suggestions that im wrong because i haven't actually taken any classes before (I guess an off shoot of the "bro, do you even lift?" bs).

what do you defend your side with, really?

On November 20 2012 10:59 KeanuReaver wrote: and what the hell does "throw your arm forward fast to get a grip" even mean

In summary: It demonstrates that there is a vast difference between the endurance required for BJJ, which has actions like grip fighting,
and the endurance required for MMA, which has actions like punching and kicking bone and muscle with 1000-2500 PSI.
Every action has an equal and opposing reaction. The thing you're hitting isn't the only thing taking a hit.

Need I even mention the inaction of being hit?

damn you trained @ XCMMA, so many sick fighters out of that camp in the past 3 years.....

not, rofl.

KeanuReaver obviously knows what he's talking about, he's whole argument which I'm not even sure what it is at this point summed up in one sentence.

"guard isn't inferior unless you're inferior to your competition" - Keanu Reaver Strategy

well played sir.

On November 20 2012 11:35 taco wrote: Show nested quote + On November 20 2012 10:59 KeanuReaver wrote: and what the hell does "throw your arm forward fast to get a grip" even mean In summary: It demonstrates that there is a vast difference between the endurance required for BJJ, which has actions like grip fighting, and the endurance required for MMA, which has actions like punching and kicking bone and muscle with 1000-2500 PSI. Every action has an equal and opposing reaction. The thing you're hitting isn't the only thing taking a hit. Need I even mention the inaction of being hit?

so in other words, you are in fact stating that a professional fighter can regularly punch and kick at 1000-2500PSI

On November 20 2012 11:38 kaboom wrote: damn you trained @ XCMMA, so many sick fighters out of that camp in the past 3 years..... not, rofl. KeanuReaver obviously knows what he's talking about, he's whole argument which I'm not even sure what it is at this point summed up in one sentence. "guard isn't inferior unless you're inferior to your competition" - Keanu Reaver Strategy well played sir.

really?

over the past 2 years i've trained there

gray maynard, randy couture, forrest griffin, martin kampmann, tyson griffin, vinny magalhaes, meisha tate. just off the top of my head. the only reason i even mentioned XCMMA in the first place is because of how often taco has suggested i have no experience and that he mentioned Randy Couture.

you're not really here to add anything to the convo, right? just to be cute and trolly? carry on then

On November 20 2012 11:46 KeanuReaver wrote: Show nested quote + On November 20 2012 11:38 kaboom wrote: damn you trained @ XCMMA, so many sick fighters out of that camp in the past 3 years..... not, rofl. KeanuReaver obviously knows what he's talking about, he's whole argument which I'm not even sure what it is at this point summed up in one sentence. "guard isn't inferior unless you're inferior to your competition" - Keanu Reaver Strategy well played sir. really? over the past 2 years i've trained there gray maynard, randy couture, forrest griffin, martin kampmann, tyson griffin, vinny magalhaes, meisha tate. just off the top of my head. the only reason i even mentioned XCMMA in the first place is because of how often taco has suggested i have no experience and that he mentioned Randy Couture. you're not really here to add anything to the convo, right? just to be cute and trolly? carry on then

not trolling, and I agree with your strategy.

"guard isn't inferior unless you're inferior to your competition" - Keanu Reaver Strategy

On November 20 2012 12:10 kaboom wrote: Show nested quote + On November 20 2012 11:46 KeanuReaver wrote:   On November 20 2012 11:38 kaboom wrote: damn you trained @ XCMMA, so many sick fighters out of that camp in the past 3 years..... not, rofl. KeanuReaver obviously knows what he's talking about, he's whole argument which I'm not even sure what it is at this point summed up in one sentence. "guard isn't inferior unless you're inferior to your competition" - Keanu Reaver Strategy well played sir. really? over the past 2 years i've trained there gray maynard, randy couture, forrest griffin, martin kampmann, tyson griffin, vinny magalhaes, meisha tate. just off the top of my head. the only reason i even mentioned XCMMA in the first place is because of how often taco has suggested i have no experience and that he mentioned Randy Couture. you're not really here to add anything to the convo, right? just to be cute and trolly? carry on then not trolling, and I agree with your strategy. "guard isn't inferior unless you're inferior to your competition" - Keanu Reaver Strategy

yeah sorry, may have gone over your head a bit.

MMA fighters regularly punch and kick at 1000-2500PSI - Taco and Kaboom

On November 20 2012 12:13 KeanuReaver wrote: Show nested quote + On November 20 2012 12:10 kaboom wrote:   On November 20 2012 11:46 KeanuReaver wrote:   On November 20 2012 11:38 kaboom wrote: damn you trained @ XCMMA, so many sick fighters out of that camp in the past 3 years..... not, rofl. KeanuReaver obviously knows what he's talking about, he's whole argument which I'm not even sure what it is at this point summed up in one sentence. "guard isn't inferior unless you're inferior to your competition" - Keanu Reaver Strategy well played sir. really? over the past 2 years i've trained there gray maynard, randy couture, forrest griffin, martin kampmann, tyson griffin, vinny magalhaes, meisha tate. just off the top of my head. the only reason i even mentioned XCMMA in the first place is because of how often taco has suggested i have no experience and that he mentioned Randy Couture. you're not really here to add anything to the convo, right? just to be cute and trolly? carry on then not trolling, and I agree with your strategy. "guard isn't inferior unless you're inferior to your competition" - Keanu Reaver Strategy yeah sorry, may have gone over your head a bit. MMA fighters regularly punch and kick at 1000-2500PSI - Taco and Kaboom

rofl, thanks for quoting something I didn't even say nor agree to.

I simply stated Taco > You

Maybe look back and see what the discussion was about in the first place, it was never about MMA fighters punching @ the same PSI as boxers, rofl.

im not even sure what you guys are arguing about. seems like the cool thing to do nowadays is zone in on one tiny aspect of someones post and go on a huge tangential rant including tons of strawmans about it.

anderson conserving some energy while retaining guard and waiting for the fight to be stood up or the round to end is usually not a bad plan, i.e. what he did in the henderson fight. but if doing nothing and conserving energy comes at the cost of him getting mounted by someone who could finish him then it was worth spending energy to try to shrimp out, cage walk, get back to his feet, or whatever. and if he cant do that then its kind of proof his back game sucks. thanks captain obvious daut

stop disagreeing over the tiniest details

On November 20 2012 12:25 kaboom wrote: Show nested quote + On November 20 2012 12:13 KeanuReaver wrote:   On November 20 2012 12:10 kaboom wrote:   On November 20 2012 11:46 KeanuReaver wrote:   On November 20 2012 11:38 kaboom wrote: damn you trained @ XCMMA, so many sick fighters out of that camp in the past 3 years..... not, rofl. KeanuReaver obviously knows what he's talking about, he's whole argument which I'm not even sure what it is at this point summed up in one sentence. "guard isn't inferior unless you're inferior to your competition" - Keanu Reaver Strategy well played sir. really? over the past 2 years i've trained there gray maynard, randy couture, forrest griffin, martin kampmann, tyson griffin, vinny magalhaes, meisha tate. just off the top of my head. the only reason i even mentioned XCMMA in the first place is because of how often taco has suggested i have no experience and that he mentioned Randy Couture. you're not really here to add anything to the convo, right? just to be cute and trolly? carry on then not trolling, and I agree with your strategy. "guard isn't inferior unless you're inferior to your competition" - Keanu Reaver Strategy yeah sorry, may have gone over your head a bit. MMA fighters regularly punch and kick at 1000-2500PSI - Taco and Kaboom rofl, thanks for quoting something I didn't even say nor agree to. I simply stated Taco > You Maybe look back and see what the discussion was about in the first place, it was never about MMA fighters punching @ the same PSI as boxers, rofl.

because mma punchers not punching at the same PSI as boxers is why that statement is so awesome

edit:

damn you trained @ XCMMA, so many sick fighters out of that camp in the past 3 years.....

not, rofl. - Kaboom

On November 20 2012 12:28 Daut wrote: im not even sure what you guys are arguing about. seems like the cool thing to do nowadays is zone in on one tiny aspect of someones post and go on a huge tangential rant including tons of strawmans about it. anderson conserving some energy while retaining guard and waiting for the fight to be stood up or the round to end is usually not a bad plan, i.e. what he did in the henderson fight. but if doing nothing and conserving energy comes at the cost of him getting mounted by someone who could finish him then it was worth spending energy to try to shrimp out, cage walk, get back to his feet, or whatever. and if he cant do that then its kind of proof his back game sucks. thanks captain obvious daut stop disagreeing over the tiniest details

see i actually don't think it's a bad plan for silva either, but i think that's because his ground game isn't as good as many seem to think it is

if he really was that good then he wouldn't need to stall.

On November 20 2012 12:35 KeanuReaver wrote: Show nested quote + On November 20 2012 12:25 kaboom wrote:   On November 20 2012 12:13 KeanuReaver wrote:   On November 20 2012 12:10 kaboom wrote:   On November 20 2012 11:46 KeanuReaver wrote:   On November 20 2012 11:38 kaboom wrote: damn you trained @ XCMMA, so many sick fighters out of that camp in the past 3 years..... not, rofl. KeanuReaver obviously knows what he's talking about, he's whole argument which I'm not even sure what it is at this point summed up in one sentence. "guard isn't inferior unless you're inferior to your competition" - Keanu Reaver Strategy well played sir. really? over the past 2 years i've trained there gray maynard, randy couture, forrest griffin, martin kampmann, tyson griffin, vinny magalhaes, meisha tate. just off the top of my head. the only reason i even mentioned XCMMA in the first place is because of how often taco has suggested i have no experience and that he mentioned Randy Couture. you're not really here to add anything to the convo, right? just to be cute and trolly? carry on then not trolling, and I agree with your strategy. "guard isn't inferior unless you're inferior to your competition" - Keanu Reaver Strategy yeah sorry, may have gone over your head a bit. MMA fighters regularly punch and kick at 1000-2500PSI - Taco and Kaboom rofl, thanks for quoting something I didn't even say nor agree to. I simply stated Taco > You Maybe look back and see what the discussion was about in the first place, it was never about MMA fighters punching @ the same PSI as boxers, rofl. because mma punchers not punching at the same PSI as boxers is why that statement is so awesome

For someone who supposedly has been training MMA (Maybe it's some kind of aerobic-mma you do?), you seem to zone in on a point that's really irrelevant to the sport.

MMA is not boxing and modern day MMA is much different than the good ol pride days.

The fact of the matter is, pulling guard in MMA against a top fighter (Most top fighters in the sport are well rounded these days) in today's modern-mma is not a good ideal most of the time for numerous reasons which was probably already discussed in this thread (didn't read all the walls of text), if not go google around.

This of course unless you completely outclass the guy on the ground, which is coherent with the Keanu Reaver Strategy.