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Sauce on improving

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LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Jun 08 2014 06:46. Posts 15163

I have stumbled across a great post by sauce on RiO forums, see it here:
http://www.runitonce.com/pro-training/videos/toy-gaming-part-2/

All written by sauce, I've just added some formatting and notes in red. hope you like


What does it takes to translate theory to practice and play great poker?

I think in order to play great poker it's necessary to make decisions at an instinctive level. I'm not sure if instinctive is the right word, so I'll offer a couple of other descriptions to make myself clearer. Psychologists (at least in the popular Kahneman book which I've read recently

see it here: Maps of bounded rationality - Kahneman my undergraduate dissertation was on the topic

Sometimes split up our cognitive skills into System 1 and System 2, with System 1 being the characteristically automatic and effortless System that we use to read, see, recognize faces, etc. Athletes might say you have to "do it unconsciously" or "know it in your bones" or something. Programmers sometimes call fine grained instinctive decision making "expert knowledge" and they have trouble recreating it. I've sometimes said I try to think about the hand geometrically or spatially, by which I mean my mental representation is more like a picture than like a math problem. I'm sure there's loads of other ways to get at the same point. autopilot, unconscious competence, muscle memory, lots of terms for this all meaning roughly the same thing

My experience has been that what makes a great poker player is an instinct for making good poker decisions. In my own case I've found that directed study can do wonders for clarifying my thoughts about poker, which leads to training better instincts at the table.
It's definitely true though that most pros (even high stakes pros) do very little study, and just playing tons of hands while thinking really hard about decisions trains them to play at a very high level.

On the other hand, there's a lot of people who have played a lot of poker, and most of them haven't succeeded in becoming great players; I guess beyond a certain level some amount of talent is required. My view though is that dedicated study can go a long way, and it's a lot less of a gamble then playing tons of hands and hoping to be talented.

One training idea I've been working with lately is breaking up clusters of skills required at the poker table into categories which I label 'mechanics'.
The idea is that by focusing on the conscious practice and refinement to instinct of one mechanic at a time I'll be able to build up a hierarchy of increasingly complicated skills. So, to take a non poker example for clarification, take driving a car. Driving is a fairly complicated skill, but one basically everybody can get good enough at. When we first drive, we have to attend to everything: the position of the pedals under us, the place the key goes in the ignition, all the various buttons, where the gas tank is, and then all of the driving decisions as well. But after a little bit, the basic mechanic I just described becomes automatic, and it's easier to focus on driving decisions; eventually driving is automatic (in most situations) and we can chat and think of other things while we drive. Sports analogies are good here too.


I think there's a useful analogy with poker, and the mechanics can be broken down as:

1) Basic mechanics
are things like knowing the rules, knowing whose turn it is to act, knowing who is in what position, and knowing how much is being bet and what's in the pot.

2)Intermediate mechanics are things like knowing what pot odds we're getting and giving, and roughly how good our hand is, and making some guesses about what our opponent is holding.
Cariadon pops into mind as a great example of someone who stopped here


3) Advanced mechanics might include things we're talking about here-
-instinctually balancing betting and bluffing ratios for various sizings
-keeping track of our entire distribution at a given decision point
-thinking one or more streets ahead in the game tree
-and gathering probabilistic reads on our opponent to make exploitative responses to their set of strategies.

I find I learn efficiently when I get regular feedback on one or more mechanics I'm working on. So, you might go about translating your conscious, analytic, effortful work on poker theory into an instinctual mechanic by taking five or so hands a day and first writing down in a stream of consciousness your best guess at your range in a given spot. Then you might solve the spots to near equilibrium and see how close or far away you are. I find when I do this repeatedly my instincts improve.

This is all very sketchy advice, and I absolutely don't consider myself an expert (I'm barely a dilettante) in psychology or education or any of the relevant disciplines pertaining to this discussion. I have however spent a ton of time trying to teach myself poker, and hopefully some of the insights I've come to in my own study translate, or are at least food for thought, in helping you to turn theory into practice.

Ben "Sauce" Sulsky

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93% Sure! Last edit: 08/06/2014 07:59

k4ir0s   Canada. Jun 08 2014 07:55. Posts 3478

thanks

I dont know what a dt drop is. Is it a wrestling move? -Oly 

cariadon   Estonia. Jun 08 2014 08:42. Posts 4019

Your vocabulary shouldn't even include words like "improving". Playing <50nl for years and years and years. You may write as many blogposts or deceive yourself or even blow smoke into some lowstakes players arses but the reality you can't escape is results. Which you have nothing to show for. So go ahead, keep improving, the longer it goes on the more value the word loses coming from you.


LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Jun 08 2014 09:03. Posts 15163

Not that I don't try not to care about results, but I have pretty okay results relative to the skill level you assign me

93% Sure! Last edit: 08/06/2014 09:05

cariadon   Estonia. Jun 08 2014 09:07. Posts 4019

You must overestimate the skill level i assign you.


LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Jun 08 2014 09:16. Posts 15163

Why thank you for complimenting my results

93% Sure!  

LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Jun 08 2014 09:38. Posts 15163

Also thank you for your kindness, but I have not written any of the blog - I assumed I made it clear enough

93% Sure!  

napoleono   Romania. Jun 08 2014 12:49. Posts 771

Haters gonna hate. Keep it up man, whatever makes u happy


Romm3l   Germany. Jun 08 2014 13:50. Posts 285

interesting reading, thanks for bringing it here.


JohnnyBologna   United States. Jun 08 2014 15:23. Posts 1401

very good article. So much of this applies to life as well. SO much stuff we practice in theory but are not able to in real time

Just do whats right 

GoldRush   United States. Jun 08 2014 20:15. Posts 1025

good article


whamm!   Albania. Jun 08 2014 22:48. Posts 11625

that beard


GoldRush   United States. Jun 09 2014 14:58. Posts 1025

btw why bash lemon. u guys gotta realize, over the years i've met tons of players, and some players, even though they are very solid, have problems at higher stakes because of "gambling with more monies" - this seems to be lemons case, as his thinking process seems solid etc.

if he never did any cashouts, he should be at least crushing nl100+++

the guy just needs to stop cashing out poker funds for 6 months minimum to build up.

i believe in him tbh.

GL Lemon.
Ryan


GoldRush   United States. Jun 09 2014 15:01. Posts 1025

that beard.......always a bridesmaid..


LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Jun 09 2014 18:56. Posts 15163

Although it's true that without cashouts I'd have a NL500 roll now

In advanced mechanics even though I understand like 90% concepts, I am pretty much in kindergarten when it comes to practical application.
Thing is it doesn't matter how many videos you watch, how many posts you read or write. To get the advanced mechanics and apply them in your game there is no shortcut unless you are mad talented like nanonoko or isildur(I'm not)- you have to drill drill drill work out your own game and your own ranges on and off the table to force yourself to eventually think entirely in ranges and distributions.
Shit's hard, and tedious, and a reason why I doubt even NLHE cash games are anywhere near to drying up in the next years. I work harder than most and am still a lazy fuck that's done fuck all in this aspect. I still break down like what, 2 hands per week on average with math and range break down, neither of them entirely on all streets even, and I'm being generous? 5 a day, lol wtf Sauce

93% Sure! Last edit: 09/06/2014 19:13

LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Jun 09 2014 19:29. Posts 15163

Cause first of all our ranges are different cause of different styles and different player pools compared to people making videos.

And second, video makers almost never reveal their ranges because of laziness or they purposefully hold them back as Sauce has openly admitted.

93% Sure! Last edit: 09/06/2014 19:29

bigredhoss   Cook Islands. Jun 09 2014 21:26. Posts 8649

have you ever tried programming lemon? i think it fits a lot of the same concepts you like about poker (encourages/rewards analytically-minded ppl, potentially provides a level of autonomy, can make a lot of money if you get really good at it, if not can still be fun and a little profitable as a hobby). there's also way more quality free programming material available compared to poker training material.

enjoyed the blogpost btw

Truck-Crash LifeLast edit: 09/06/2014 21:33

jvilla777   Australia. Jun 10 2014 05:04. Posts 1348


  On June 09 2014 17:56 LemOn[5thF] wrote:
Although it's true that without cashouts I'd have a NL500 roll now



It's cool how you analyze hands, and give details and opinions, I too always wondered why you have over 13k post and provide really advanced comments and feedback but still play in the micros. Not bashing you, I like what you do in forums, how you help others and comment on hands.

Please post lifetime graph.

longple: ur missing the point! this is an attempt to get away from the bumhuntmentality! 

hiems   United States. Jun 10 2014 11:12. Posts 2979


  On June 09 2014 20:26 bigredhoss wrote:
have you ever tried programming lemon? i think it fits a lot of the same concepts you like about poker (encourages/rewards analytically-minded ppl, potentially provides a level of autonomy, can make a lot of money if you get really good at it, if not can still be fun and a little profitable as a hobby). there's also way more quality free programming material available compared to poker training material.

enjoyed the blogpost btw



nah lemon would be best off as a postdoc/assistantprofessor track and most practically a high school teacher or something like that.

I beat Loco!!! [img]https://i.imgur.com/wkwWj2d.png[/img]Last edit: 10/06/2014 11:14

LemOn[5thF]   Czech Republic. Jun 10 2014 13:13. Posts 15163

Yeah I actually considered doing being a research student few years back.

I like the flexibility and theory crafting of poker while keeping it competitive though - academia you have freedom the study's very similar to poker but it I kinda enjoy the competitiveness you won't find there.

Besides. as long as I have money for food I'm a happy camper I'm spending loads of time reading and got caught in science now too. It's just more fun when you can study whatever the hell you like with no pressure. Hell there's positive pressure as reading what's fun and engaging takes my mind off poker and makes me play better

93% Sure! Last edit: 10/06/2014 13:16

 
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